February 17, 2026
The Empire Club of Canada Presents
Protecting the Dream of Homeownership in Ontario: The Honourable Rob Flack, Ontario’s Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing
Chairman: Saurabh Popat, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Moderator
Steve Paikin, Host of The Paikin Podcast
Distinguished Guest Speaker
The Honourable Rob Flack, Ontario’s Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing
Head Table Guests
Kim Fairley, President-Elect, OREA
The Honourable David Peterson, Chairman, TorStar; Former Premier of Ontario
Bonnie Hiltz, Vice President of Government & Stakeholder Relations, Hydro One
Welcome Address by Saurabh Popat, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Thanks so much. Thank you. Good afternoon everyone. I’m Saurabh Popat, the chair of the board here at the Empire Club of Canada, and your host for today’s event.
To formally begin, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering on the Traditional and Treaty Lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. I encourage you all to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you work and live.
Today’s event would not be possible without the incredible and generous support of our sponsors. The Empire Club is a non-profit organization, and our sponsors generously support the club, and make these events possible, and complimentary for our online viewers to attend. So, please join me in thanking our Lead Sponsors, Hydro One, and the Ontario Real Estate Association. Thank you. And thank you to our VIP Reception Sponsors, Waste Connections of Canada, the Insurance Bureau of Canada, London Hydro, and YZD by Northcrest. Thank you. And thank you to our Supporting Sponsor, ReEquity Homes. Thank you so much. We also deeply appreciate the ongoing support of our Lead Season Sponsors, Bruce Power, Hydro One, and National Bank Capital Markets, and our VIP Reception Season Sponsors, Ellis Don, McKinsey & Company, the Ontario Road Builders Association, and Waste Connections of Canada. Thank you so much to all of you. And finally, thank you to our Media Sponsor, the Toronto Star, and our AV Partner, Bespoke Audio Visual. Thank you.
If you have a question for our speakers, please scan the QR code found on your program, or through the Q&A function, if you’re online. And for those of you online, if you require technical assistance, please use the chat feature.
The conversation that we’re having today is about an issue that is deeply personal for so many Ontarians, particularly younger Ontarians, and their ability to build a future, their financial security, and a sense of belonging by owning a home. Across Ontario and across our country, housing affordability is no longer just a policy challenge. It’s something more consequential, and it feels like a promise that is far-reaching for so many. The story we have told ourselves is that succeeding generations of Canadians, and if they go to school, if they work hard and they follow the rules, they can have the opportunity, a dream, to do better than their parents. It was true for a very long time, but it no longer feels that way. The facts speak for themselves.
New national research from Abacus Data that was conducted with the Canadian Home Builders Association shows that 7 in 10 non-home owners still want to buy a home someday. And among Canadians aged 18 to 29, that number rises to nearly 9 in 10. At the same time, fewer than one-in-third of non-home owners believe that they ever will own a home. People still want the dream. They just don’t believe it anymore. And this isn’t just about home ownership. It’s bigger than that. Ultimately, it’s about trust. It’s about hope and faith, trust that the systems that we rely on for us, hope that things will get better, and faith that they will. And when those values are eroded, when people become cynical, it affects more than just the market. It starts to unravel the very fabric of Canadian society itself.
Now, those dynamics are already shaping public discourse and political behaviour. Dr. David Coletto, whom we heard from in Ottawa last week, has written that housing is fast becoming a defining ballot question across the country. As he puts it, the housing crisis is producing something that Canada has not seen at this scale in decades. A generation of voters who feel that the system is working against them. That’s why today’s conversation matters so very much. Ontario faces rising construction costs, slowing housing starts, and an affordability gap that continues to widen. And of course, the trade tensions with the US have added new pressure, driving up costs and uncertainty at a moment when confidence is already fragile. Municipalities are struggling to balance infrastructure needs, service delivery and fiscal constraints, and remain frustrated as do families that the supply of housing has not caught up to demand.
So we need to ask ourselves, how do we move faster? How do we unlock supply and protect affordability while building communities that work for the long term? Today’s program is designed to explore that very question from a few critical perspectives and hopefully provide hope for so many Ontarians. We’re honoured today to be joined by Minister Rob Flack, Ontario’s Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, for a keynote address titled “Protecting the Dream of Home Ownership in Ontario.” Minister Flack will speak to what comes next in Ontario’s plan to support families, attract investment, and create good jobs, while accelerating the housing and infrastructure projects that communities urgently need. Following the keynote, the discussion will be moderated by Steve Paikin, host of the Paikin Podcast, whose ability to cut through complexity and get to the heart of public policy debates needs little introduction. We’re also very pleased today to have the program open by former Premier of Ontario, David Peterson, Chairman of TorStar, and former Premier, who brings a long view on how moments like this shape our province’s future.
This conversation is a core mission of the Empire Club. We believe that open dialogue, honest debate and a willingness to engage across perspectives is what moves important issues forward. And since housing touches every part of our economy, and every stage of life, this conversation and the choices we make as a consequence can help shape Ontario’s future.
Now, before we formally begin, I want to acknowledge our Lead Sponsor. Today’s event is made possible through the support of the Ontario Real Estate Association. OREA represents real estate professionals across our country—across our province, excuse me—who sees the housing crisis play out every day. They’re the people having the tough conversations with first-time buyers, renters, and families trying to put down roots, which makes them a strong partner for today’s discussion, grounded in lived experience and practical outcomes. As President-Elect of the Ontario Real Estate Association, Kim Fairley has been clear about the need for bold, innovative solutions to increase housing supply across the spectrum, from purpose-built rentals to single-family homes, and about the role that realtors can play as leaders in that work. It’s my pleasure to invite Kim to the stage to introduce our opening speaker, the Honourable David Peterson. Kim.
Introduction by Kim Fairley, President-Elect, OREA
I’ll just put that down a little bit. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Kim Fairley, and I’m the 2025 President-Elect for the Ontario Real Estate Association. It’s my pleasure to be here with you today at the Empire Club of Canada, for what I know will be a fantastic discussion with Ontario’s Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Rob Flack. As one of the largest provincial associations in Ontario, OREA represents the voices and priorities of nearly 100,000 members across this province. As a realtor myself, I know how important it is to have an organization that not only represents you, but works with the government to strengthen the profession and industry for future generations. This is why OREA is proud to be working with Minister Flack and the Government of Ontario to make housing more affordable and accessible for those looking to call our wonderful province home.
Let’s look at the government’s track record, when it comes to housing. Since first being elected in 2018, the Ford government has passed 10 pro-housing, pro-home ownership bills in legislature, including the recently passed Bill 60, which features many solutions that OREA and Ontario realtors have long been calling for. I think it’s safe to say that this is the most pro-home ownership government that Ontario has seen in a generation, so please, let’s give a hand for that. [Applause]
Minister Flack has introduced bold legislation to build more homes and address the province’s affordability crisis, work that could not be more important to Ontario realtors and our clients. He has been a strong advocate for factory built housing and pro-housing legislation that accelerates construction, cuts red tape, streamlines approvals, and gets shovels in the ground faster. We look forward to continuing our work alongside the government to reduce home ownership barriers by lowering development charges and offering innovative solutions to get more homes built.
To share a few words, to share a few more words, I’d like to introduce the 20th Premier of Ontario, the Honourable David Peterson. Yes. First elected into office in 1985, and then re-elected in 1987 with the largest majority in Ontario history, Peterson’s government reformed the province’s rent review and labour negotiation laws, and he has been consistently a steady voice in Canadian unity. Despite leaving politics in the 1990’s, he continued to advocate for the betterment of Ontario, including as the founding chairman of the Toronto Raptors, and chancellor of the University of Toronto. He now serves as chair as the board, sorry, the TorStar Board. Throughout his career, Premier Peterson has developed a reputation as someone who can work effectively across party lines to get results for the people of Ontario, which is why we are so excited to have him included as part of today’s discussion. With that said, please join me in welcoming the Honourable David Peterson.
The Honourable David Peterson, Former Premier of Ontario; Chairman, TorStar
It is in the spirit of non-partisanship and harmony that I am very proud to introduce Rob Flack. Harmony has taken over this country in the last couple of weeks with, you saw Chrétien and Harper. They almost kissed on the stage the other day. And you saw Mark Carney took all the other party leaders to Tumbler Ridge, to express the grief of the nation.
So, it’s in that spirit—and plus the fact, I think Rob had trouble getting a Conservative to introduce him, and he was at the very end of the list, and he asked me to do it. And I asked Rob, I said, “Well, like, if I introduce you at the Empire Club, do I have to vote for you?” And he said, “No, don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. You don’t live in my riding. You don’t have to, you don’t have that dilemma.” And since I am not planning on moving to his riding, I don’t have any problems doing this.
I should tell you that Rob came into my life in a kind of a strange way. He’s a friend of my wife, Shelley, not me. Shelley was on the board, they were inducted onto the board of the Royal Winter Fair, which is the largest agriculture fair in the world, together. And Shelley kept coming home and saying, you’ve gotta meet this guy, Rob Flack. He’s really smart. He really gets to the point. He’s a lot of fun. And he’s very, very supportive of Shelley, and she and Ray Stanton, who’s here, and the three of them really ran the fair, and were like the three musketeers. And more importantly, she said, He’s a political junkie. This guy knows more about Ontario politics than anybody else I know. It makes you think he’s had a bit of a misspent youth. So, we spent a lot of time together, through Shelley, and Rob, and his family. And I’ve had an awful lot of fun, and learned a lot from Rob.
Brief background on Rob. He’s from Streetsville, Ontario. We went to Guelph University. He joined Master Feeds as a sales trainee. He became president of Master Feeds in 1995. Watched it grow to a half-billion dollar company with 20 plants right across the country. So, he’s obviously a man of some talent. But something a lot of people don’t know, he’s actually a farmer. Rob’s grandfather was a farmer in the Ottawa Valley. And Rob learned to love the farm. He still has a farm in the Ottawa Valley. Rob farms 350 acres with pulled Herefords. And he’s, it gives him a deep understanding of the problems. He kind of has one right shoe on Bay Street, and another left rubber boot in the country. It’s a unique set of experiences that he has to bring to bear in public policy.
Now, you have to also understand about Rob that if he is a bit of a cultural pygmy, his wife is not—Denise, who’s here somewhere, Denise is over here. She’d wave, Denise, because she’s quite wonderful. Wherever she is, I can’t see. Well, Denise, Denise is a Juno-awarded singer with the group Leahy. So she brings culture and refinement where it’s very sorely needed in the Flack family. And he has a daughter, Emily—who I’m not sure if Emily’s here—who’s going to present him with twin grandchildren in May. And I think it’s only fair, since I’m introducing Rob, and trying to make him a bit respectable, that they would name one of those children after me, but that’s just a point.
So, there was a sort of inevitability that Rob would run for politics. He just loves it. He knows so much about it. He’s been engaged in it. He cares about it. And with this very strong resume in business and in agriculture, he’s made a very rapid ascent in public life. After he was elected, everybody said, “Just watch where he goes.” He has been given—he was Minister of Agriculture, he was Associate Minister of Housing, and now, he has one of the most difficult, if not sensitive portfolios in all of government today. The ethical challenges are huge. The practical questions are huge. The political questions, the economic questions. Nothing about this is easy, but it’s fairly easy to judge by results. And there’s lots of people harshly judging him.
So, the plan today is that Rob is going to make a speech, and then he’s gonna be interviewed by Steve Paikin. Now, everybody, Steve Paikin is right here. I have—let me just add something—I have known Paikin for 50 years. And when I was first elected, can refer to, Steve Paikin was a skinny little guy with CBC Radio sticking a microphone in my face all the time, asking me questions he didn’t understand, and I didn’t understand. So, when I was Chancellor of the University of Toronto, I was afforded the opportunity to give an honourary degree to Steve—and I’ve told this story before, I’ve told this story before—but I referred to Steve as this little snot-nosed reporter that I didn’t know he was gonna turn into Walter Cronkite. Now, nobody believed it. But I was watching a podcast of Steve’s the other day—and I recommend it to you—right behind him is a picture of Walter Cronkite. He thinks he’s Walter Cronkite. That’s, and I planted the idea. He is going to talk to Rob after the speech. He will take the role of the Leader of the Opposition. That is not my job today.
But in introducing Rob, let me say, I’m very happy to make a statement. Rob is the kind of person that should be in politics. He has accomplishments, he has experience, he has the time, the deep knowledge, and deep, deep commitment to the public good. And, shall I say, he loves it. Not everybody loves politics. But it’s important to have happy warriors in charge of all the things that they do. And in introducing Rob, I wanna make a serious statement, a serious statement. I do not believe in hatred, or even dislike, on the basis of political affiliation. When you look what’s happening across the border today and that flood venom that we face, I don’t believe in hatred anymore for political reasons, any more than I do for religious reasons, or reasons of colour, or reasons of ethnicity. And Rob brings a fundamental decency to politics that I respect. Ladies and gentlemen, my friend, Rob Flack.
The Honourable Robert J. Flack, Ontario’s Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing
Well, thank you, Premier. So great to see Shelley here. And yes, Denise, let everyone know where we are. Stand up, Denise—oh, she moved. Well, there she is at the back. Hard to find her, sometimes. The one thing I have to start by saying, David, is he often introduced me as saying, this is Rob Flack, he’s a really nice guy, too nice to be a Tory. And I say, well, this is a great Premier of Ontario, David Peterson, who’s too smart to be a Liberal. But the bottom line is, David, you may not be living in my riding, but I once lived in your riding. So, when I moved to London in 1986 from Guelph—Cam Guthrie’s here, of the great city of Guelph—you were my MPP, and you happened to be Premier of Ontario. And I remember the 1987 election was called, and immediately—and Shelley, you remember this—these signs popped up in the riding, all down Elmwood Avenue, and across Ontario, I might add, of this good-looking, virile, strong leader, in a jogging suit, a red jogging suit, these rectangle signs. And basically, I’ll never forget this story, the poor guy, the Tory, knocked on my door—the street was pure red—and the Tory knocked on my door, and I felt so sorry for the bugger, I let him put up a sign. But bottom line is, the election was over before it started, and David, you truly were a great Premier for this province. Thank you very much.
He talked about Shelley, and yes, and Ray stands back there, we were the three amigos, still are, but we got to know each other, so Shelley did a great—if anyone had a chance to be at the 100th anniversary of the Royal, she led the show, did a great job, and I would just say this: thank you for your friendship, thank you for introducing me to David. He really is a mentor, again, regardless of political stripe, we’re here to serve Ontario, we’re here to serve Canada. So, thank you very much, Shelley. You’re a great grand lady. Thank you very much.
So, I have to thank—there’s a, like I’m walking around the room, I know most people, so I can’t introduce everyone, or I’ll never get out of here, we’ll never get out. But obviously, to the Empire Club, thank you so much, Saurabh, for hosting us. All the sponsors, thank you very much. In particular, I wanna point out [Indiscernible], and where’s Ryan Goss, from London Hydro, came all the way from London to support us here, so thank you local folks that do a great job. We also have some MPPs here, Laura Smith is here, I believe Matt Ray is here, he’s here. We’ve also got former ministers here, Monte McNaughton is here, I see Monte, and I know Michael, where’s Michael Ford? Michael Ford’s right there, so welcome there. Wanna make—and we’ve got a former speaker of the house, Dave Levac, where did Dave go? He wouldn’t recognize—stand up, Dave, thanks for dressing up for today, buddy, it looks really good. And we’ve got Patrice Barnes, a former deputy speaker of the house, Patrice is here somewhere. And for ecumenical reasons, I’m so glad to see Stephanie Smythe here at the back. So, welcome, Stephanie, great to be back. Did you get to meet Joseph? She’s wanting to get a private members bill through, and we’re trying to help her navigate it. So, come and see Joseph. All our mayors are here—hands up if you’re a municipal council here, please. There’ll be lots. Lots of mayors, and we’ll have lots of time to chat today, all about the great work you do in this province. We’ve got Robin Jones, president of AMO here, hi Robin. And that’s really good. We also have a former mayor of Toronto, John Tory. Where is Mr. Tory? Hiding away. He’s back there. Hey, John, back in the far left. I gave you a nice little present you can open later on, you’ll enjoy it. And obviously we’ve got Steve, and I’m looking forward to working with you, Steve, in the next few minutes.
So, anyways, down to business. An important subject to talk about today. Throughout our history, Canadians have come to many crossroads. From the crossroads of Confederation, the Great Depression and World Wars, Canadians persevered. From the crossroads of our national unity challenges, and our global trade negotiations, Canadians persevered. Today, Canada stands at a different crossroad, one with our closest ally and friend, the United States of America. Through every crisis Canada has faced, Canada has always, and I repeat, always, taken a leading role in protecting the Federation. From Oliver Mowatt, to John Robarts, to Bill Davis, and yes, our very own David Peterson here today, every premier has persevered in their defense of Ontario, in their defense of Canada, which leads us to today. Our leader, Doug Ford, was elected to carry on this legacy to protect Ontario, but never ever at the expense of Canada. We elect leaders, premiers and prime ministers for a reason, and for a season, and I’m proud to be part of a team led by our premier who will never give up on Ontario, never give up on Canada.
Let me begin with a question. If you work hard and safe, in this great province, can you ever buy your own home? My bet is that many people in this room, over 50, maybe a little less, never thought about, let alone asked this question. According to a recent Abacus poll, only 29% of non-homeowners—again, non-homeowners—say they are confident they will ever be able to buy a home someday. The other 71% are split between those who are unsure they ever will, and those who have accepted that it will never happen. So, roughly 30% say they think they can, but fully 70%-plus really don’t think it’s a possibility. The recent poll also highlights that the housing crisis is no longer just about helping the vulnerable. What is at stake now is whether the middle class can achieve the quintessential Canadian dream of home ownership. Increasingly, many young and not-so-young people have lost hope in the dream of owning their own piece of Ontario, their own piece of Canada. This is unacceptable.
Friends, housing is fundamental to a thriving society. Home is a sanctuary for you and your family. Home is where you build equity, away from the reach of government taxes. Home for many is your nest egg for retirement. Building a strong and stable home you’re proud of is a milestone achievement in life. So, let me be clear. When the path to home ownership disappears, when home building is no longer a viable endeavor, the foundation of our economy weakens, and it changes who we are as a nation. Not only because of the reasons I just listed, but because skilled trades, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and more, rely on the housing market for their livelihood. A minimum, and I repeat, a minimum of 100,000 key jobs in this sector are at risk. Job creation has and still is the pillar of our economic prosperity, and our government will do everything humanly possible to protect these jobs.
Now, let me categorically state, again, I say it all the time, governments don’t build houses, home builders do. Our job at all levels of government is to create the conditions to build more housing and faster. However, many of the forces we are up against are beyond our control. We experienced a global pandemic where prices escalated, supply chains were interrupted, and the construction costs skyrocketed. This was followed by a period of higher interest rates, and now we are facing tariffs impacting steel and construction materials. Challenging, to say the least.
So, what is Ontario doing to help create the conditions to help kickstart the home building industry? Across the province, I keep hearing the same thing time and time again, wherever I go. And that is: it takes too long, and it costs too much to build houses. With the support of Graydon Smith, who is here today, and parliamentary assistants Matt Ray and Brian Sonderson, and Laura Smith, we are changing this. Along with Todd McCarthy, who is over here, as well, and we’ll talk a little later about Todd and the great work he’s doing in infrastructure. Our ministry introduced the Protect Ontario by Building Faster and Smarter Act last May. This was followed by the Fighting Delays, Building Faster Act this past fall. These bills were crafted in close partnership with municipal leaders and home builders. These actions are complimented by my colleagues across government—again, many here today—and the work previous ministers before me have done.
For example, last fall, Minister Bethlenfalvy and I announced that we were rebating the provincial portion of the HST for first-time home buyers. This is a major cost-saving measure that will get prospective home buyers off the sidelines, and into their first house. We know, I know, there are many who want this rebate expanded to all new home builds—I think there’s probably a few people in here, who have lobbied our government that way. Trust me, when I say this. Trust me, we hear you loud and clear. Frankly, how do you collect—I’m stealing from the Premier, a little bit—frankly, how do you collect the HST in a home that is never built? We need to kickstart this industry. And of course, we call on our federal partners, the federal government, to step up and join us, if indeed, this is the path we follow.
Across Ontario, we need all types of houses. Single-family homes, townhomes, multiplexes, and rentals. A diverse range of housing options is the only way we will solve our housing crisis. It allows for choice, meeting a wide array of needs. Those who want flexibility that come with renting, the couple who want to purchase a starter home, the family that needs extra space, and is looking for a forever home where their children can grow up, it could even be seniors wanting to downsize. And on that note, I want to acknowledge that rental housing is a bright light in our housing market today. Across the province, about a third of people rent. We know that we need to keep pace with the demand in the sector. And that is why, in 2023, we removed the HST on purpose-built rentals to accelerate construction. Increasingly, supply means competitiveness. Increasing competitiveness creates affordability. This formula’s worked for rental housing. In 2025, rental starts are up around 24,000 units, which is the highest on record in the province of Ontario.
We cannot address our housing challenges alone, though. We rely on our municipal partners to drive change on the ground—again, many here today. And over the course of my time as minister, I’ve had the pleasure of building strong relationships with our municipal leaders—again, many here today. And with Amo and Roma, Robin Jones, thank you for your support.
However—and I think many of my friends in municipal government will agree—too often, our ministry finds itself having to intervene, due to municipal red tape. Some of our municipal partners have delivered tremendous success in speeding up home building in their towns and their cities. But this has to be the norm across Ontario, not the exception. That is why we reinforced the Building Code is king, without different municipal iterations and interpretations, and it will stay that way. That is why we are limiting, and hopefully eliminating, roadblocks like time-wasting studies that slow down permitting. That is why we will simplify the planning process, so home builders and municipalities alike can easily navigate building homes and infrastructure.
Finally, the most important municipal challenge we are targeting is development charges. We’ve heard a lot about them. In 2025, BUILD undertook a study with the OHBA to look at the impact of development charges just last year. They found that DCs often add an extra 100 to 150,000 dollars per single-family home in the GTA. Think about it, 100 to 150,000. This math doesn’t work. And that is why we are taking drastic action to lower DCs, to defer DCs and find alternative ways to fund needed infrastructure like municipal service corporations, as I’m hoping, Steve, you and I can talk a little bit about that in our fireside chat. Because I think there’s some exciting things that Minister McCarthy and I are working on, to make sure that we can advance new solutions for infrastructure.
The only way we will solve the housing crisis is when all levels of government find solutions outside of our comfortable pew. We’ve gotta get uncomfortable. And that is why I’m excited to be the co-chair of the Federal Provincial Territorial Forum on Housing over the next two years. As co-chair, I look forward to working with Minister Gregor Robertson to deliver a renewed and targeted national housing strategy. We need a new strategy. Many of our people in our cities, towns, and rural communities are struggling. This we know. Other levels of government too often point the finger, but the reality is this is not just a singular government issue. Rather than playing the blame game, we need to rethink how we can address this chronic dilemma, and collectively. We need to recalibrate, based on what is working and what isn’t working. Some heavy lifting ahead for sure, but very important work to accomplish in the months ahead.
Throughout my business career, I tried to hire the brightest and the best—said tried, maybe not always, but you always try. I always kept the customer at the forefront in all that we did, and was relentless in delivering and trying to deliver the results. Moving from the private sector to government has been the honour of my life. David talked about it. It really is a dream come true. It has been the honour of my life. Public service matters, people. Doing your part matters. Making a difference matters. But as you know, government—and I’m sure, David, it was the same when you were here—government at times moves at glacial speed. And this is something I still struggle with in my new political career, and patience, as my wife well knows, is not one of my nice virtues. However, along with our colleagues here today—all of our colleagues, because this is not a partisan issue; this is a crisis across Canada—we are moving forward with a bias for action.
Thomas Jefferson once said, “Well done is better than well said.” Think about those seven simple words. They add up to one word. To me, that word is accountability. As we tackle the housing crisis we are in, accountability is our collective duty, everyone in this room. We are here to listen. We are here to learn. But more importantly, we are here to act. Again, well done is better than well said. Yes, on many fronts, we are at a crossroad in Ontario and in Canada, but when haven’t we been?
Of late, Speaker Donna Skelly has been playing reruns of question period on the Legislative Channel—1986 Premier rerun, specifically. Now, I know everyone’s been glued to them, just amazingly—you’ve switched off the Olympics to watch these reruns. But I think the only two people really that have watched them has been McCarthy and Flack. But, and I want to say as I watched a dynamic, and I might add very dapper, like today, Premier Peterson respond to pointed questions from Larry Grossman, Mike Harris, and Bob Rae. I couldn’t help but notice a common theme, one that connects 1986 to 2026. Premier, you and your ministers were grilled on healthcare challenges, classroom sizes, trade negotiations, that was the Kuzma trade negotiations, and yes, housing issues. As it was then and is now, leading Ontario is not for the faint of heart. In 1986, the population of Ontario was 9.1 million people. Today, we are 16.3 million people strong, a growing province, a growing nation. Although times have changed, and our circumstances have evolved, 40 years later, we continue to tackle today’s challenges with resolve and a sense of urgency.
The dream of home ownership is part of our DNA. It has never come easy, nor should it. People still need to work hard, save, and sacrifice, to own their piece of Canada. And I believe when they do, they should be assured that home ownership is within reach. We must do better, we must do more, and we are. Perseverance is an empowering Canadian attribute. I am very confident that we will indeed persevere with hope, and with confidence. And on our watch, we will absolutely keep the dream of home ownership alive for generations to come. Thank you for your time and attention. Thank you, Empire Club, this is great. Steve, I guess it’s up to you and I now. Thank you all.
Saurabh Popat
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Minister. Yeah, we’re just gonna introduce the session here. Before I begin, I want to extend our thanks to both of our speakers. To Premier Peterson, for opening the program, and for bringing a long lens on how moments like this shape Ontario’s future. And to Minister Flack, for sharing the Province’s perspective on what comes next in the effort to protect the dream of home ownership, and accelerate housing delivery across Ontario. To guide that discussion, we’re fortunate to have Steve Paikin here today. And for more than four decades, Steve has been one of Canada’s most trusted voices in public affairs. As a long time host of “The Agenda” on TVO, and now as host of “The Paikin Podcast” and co-host of “OnPoli Podcast”…
Steve Paikin, Host of The Paikin Podcast
You’re cutting into my time here. Let’s move this along.
Saurabh Popat
Okay, keep it rolling, all right. Listen, we’ll just now move into a fireside chat, because that’s what matters here today, on exploring how Ontario can unlock housing supply, restore affordability and rebuild confidence in a moment when trust truly matters. Steve, the stage is yours, and the Minister it’s yours.
Steve Paikin
Thank you very much, okay. Couple of housekeeping matters before we start here. Number one, you have not seen the questions ahead of time, so this is going to be a spontaneous conversation. Number two—and I always have to do this, when I have dealings with you—in the interest of full disclosure, my brother is a home builder in the province of Ontario. And when I told him I was doing this with you, he made sure to be out of the country today. So, yeah. He loves you.
The Hon. Robert Flack
I talked to him on Friday. He’s a great guy. He says, “I was invited by my brother to come,” but he says, “I’m leaving the country.” So, there he is.
Steve Paikin
Yeah, he’s not here. That’s how much he loves you. No, he does like you, actually. I want to just start with an anniversary of yours that is coming up, because it’s next month that you are in this portfolio for a year. So, I want to just start with what I presume was the phone call you got from Doug Ford almost a year ago, with him telling you, here’s the job, Flacky—he probably called you Flacky…
The Hon. Robert Flack
Yeah. Right.
Steve Paikin
…here’s the job that I want you to take on. And knowing what a political graveyard it has been for so many who’ve had it before you, did you think about turning him down?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, it’s a great story—and this is not a setup, because this is a great story. So, leading up to the, you know, the announcement of the provincial cabinet by Premier Ford, I happened to be in Queens Park the day he started to let people know who was going to be in his cabinet. So, I just got sworn in to my seat. I had my wife, my mother, friends, family from the riding there. And as I was going to another event, the phone rang and it was, can you see the Premier? I said, sure. Where are you? Well, I said, I’m in the legislature. So he says, Better yet. So when I rolled, the Premier rolls in, sits down and you know, collegial guy, he’s a lot of fun. Take life seriously, but we have a few laughs. And then he said to me, You know, you’ve done a great job as Minister of Agriculture. I said, Well, thank you, Premier, that’s nice of you to say. Went on, talked again. And then, when he said it again, he said, You know, you did a great job in agriculture. I said, Why the hell do I think that when I leave this room, I’m not gonna be your Minister of Agriculture and Food? And then here’s where it gets fun. He said, Well, I’ve got an important assignment for you, should you choose to accept it. I said, What the hell is this, Mission Impossible? And he goes, Just about. True story, that’s exactly how it happened. So, of course I said, Yes, we’re here to serve. And it’s been an interesting, fun and dynamic year.
Steve Paikin
Knowing what a political graveyard it can be, what did you think you could bring to the job that would, potentially, put you on a road to success?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, as I said to him, first of all—and this is to all my municipal friends in the room—I know nothing about municipal, I know enough to be dangerous, but that is not the path I came into provincial politics. I’m a business guy. So, I told him that. He said, Well, bring your business approach, your acumen. I like solving problems. So I said, Let’s get at it. So, that’s simply how I look at things. It’s how I looked at it in business, it’s how I looked at it in life. What’s the problem, let’s find solutions. And you can’t look too far ahead, you’ve gotta solve the first one in front of you, and away we go. So, that’s what we’ve been doing one step at a time.
Steve Paikin
I don’t mean to diminish any accomplishments that you’ve had in the portfolio, but as you look across the country—doesn’t matter what province, or at the federal level as well, lots of people in public life have been focused on trying to find some solutions to the housing crisis that befuddles the country right now. And there are not a lot of terrific success stories out there. So, what’s going wrong?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, think back, you know, think back to 2022, when I think we had our largest housing starts in the history of the province. And since then, you know, we had this pandemic, as I said in my talk, prices skyrocketed, construction costs skyrocketed, land continued to have gone up, interest rates went up. And then, we have this guy called Trump, who poses an existential threat, real or perceived, to not only Americans, but I believe Ontario and Canada. So, it was more or less a perfect storm. And I think for the builders and developers in the room, they would agree. So, what we have to do is take that challenge, take each of those pieces one at a time. And that’s what we did. And I know it maybe didn’t make the front page of the Globe, or the Star, or whatever it may be. The front page of CBC News or the front of the CBC News, or CTV, but Bill 17 and Bill 60 are game changers. We’re creating the environment. And I, again, I think people look to ministers and governments—and governments are to blame here, too, because don’t promise the stars that you can’t deliver on. But let’s make sure that what we can do, we do and do well. We cannot alone solve the housing crisis. It’s gonna take a pan-Canadian, a pan-Ontario approach, with everybody, every stakeholder. And I’m convinced of that, wholeheartedly.
Steve Paikin
But let’s take an example from your speech, taking the HST off for first time home buyers. And then you suggested maybe we should do it for everybody, and you’ve got a round of applause in this room. Which suggests to me that most people think fine, but that’s not gonna get it done. It’s not nearly dramatic enough. Would you agree?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Dramatic enough. I think the HST, as I talked about, could be—and you know, I don’t want to promise anything here, I can’t. But I can tell you we’re working closely with the federal government, because I think if we did it together, it would have more impact. Also, the federal government promised to help alleviate development charges in the last election, which is, again, I think a very, very big problem with our housing sector today, especially in our bigger cities. So again, we’re working with them closely on that. And I think if we get that right, again, may not be the magic bullet, I think it’d have a great impact.
But—and here’s my but—and I’ve been working closely with Build, OHBA, home builders across the province. If we deliver, again, it comes back to accountability. Everybody’s got to own a piece of the pie here. So, if we do things like this, if, they’ve got to get shovels in the ground. We’ve got to take a little risk, and get it started. The housing industry I see is like a wheel. It needs to be turning. And right now, it’s not turning. OREA’s here, I think they’d agree.
Steve Paikin
Well, you mentioned DC, so let me pick up on that. And I think you said in the speech, $100,000 to $150,000?
The Hon. Robert Flack
In the GTA.
Steve Paikin
In the GTA? Okay. So, that’s real money, if you’re trying to build a home. You have the authority to just simply say to municipalities, no more DCs, you can’t charge development charges anymore. Why don’t you do that?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, because, frankly, when you think of the history of DCs, early ’90s, they came into place, and I think they spiralled too high. But again, as Minister McCarthy is here, we’re working on one of the solutions. I’d like to see them gone. But I think they just can’t be gone, because we need to put infrastructure in the ground. The Ontario Sewer and Water Main Construction Association says that between now and the next 15 years, we need $200 to $250 billion, with a B, to replace aging infrastructure, and put in new infrastructure. Growth no longer pays for growth. You can’t expect a new home buyer to pay for the infrastructure costs into the future. The municipalities don’t have the money, they’ll tell you that. The province doesn’t, nor do the feds.
So, why don’t we consider setting up municipal service corps, public utilities, publicly owned, where we can fund—much like our hydro utilities, our power utilities—where we can fund water and wastewater effectively. We’re doing Peel Region as a pilot for this. I think that’s a huge opportunity, and we’re marching head diligently on it. When we do that, that will reduce the cost of that up front DC. And again, you can amortize that investment over 50, 60, 70 years.
True story, I was with Mayor Chow a few months ago now, and I was floating this idea in front of Gregor Robertson, and one of her city managers said, Well, Mayor, for instance, when you, we had a flood at Jarvis and something on the weekend that shut down the city for a few blocks. And he said, That infrastructure for water was put in place in 1873. There’s a lot of this infrastructure across the province that needs to be replaced, and you can’t expect new home builders, or municipalities, or the province, or the feds, to just fork over the money to do it. We have to create a better way, and I truly believe municipal service corps is a unique way—not brand new, some exist in the province, but a great way for us to fund this major, major issue.
Steve Paikin
Okay. I’m not making a comment one way or the other on this next point I’m gonna bring up. You’re elected to govern, to govern is to choose, to choose is to make some people happy, some people unhappy. I would observe that your government decided to take the tax off license plates that we pay every year, and in doing so, you got a pretty good good news story on day one, everybody’s gonna save 200 bucks a year. But as a province, the treasury forgoes a billion dollars every year with that move. And I bet you Robin could think of something for that billion dollars. So, was that, it might have been good politics, but in terms of trying to solve what’s on your plate, was that a good move?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, let me say this. From 2018 to 2026 now, this government has not raised a tax, not raised a fee. In fact, we’ve lowered them. And what’s made, I believe, our government successful, partly without raising taxes, but when you create a strong economy, a rising tide lifts all boats. Our treasury has gone from 150 billion dollars in 2018, and I believe this year we’re gonna end the year about 220, 225 billion. Not a tax raised. So, the economy grew, people worked, people paid their fair share—they might argue it’s not fair—paid their fair share of taxes, the economy grew. That is the problem. So yes, we can talk about a billion dollars, and it’s a lot of money. But in the big scheme of things, we grew the economy. And that’s the big threat, Steve, in my opinion, is making sure we keep that economy strong, so the treasury can be filled. I think, what is it now in healthcare, we invest every year, 90-plus billion dollars. It’s big, big money.
Steve Paikin
And they’d love more.
The Hon. Robert Flack
Of course. Everyone would. I’ll tell you, the guy that’s got the toughest job, I feel for him, is Peter Bethlenfalvy. He goes around the province as minister of finance, and he holds the round tables about who wants what. And I’ve sat through many, in my time in politics, in government, and I mean, it’s insatiable. Everybody has their hand out. And I respect it, there’s this need. But we have to live within our means, and I think we have, for the most part, and it’s made our economy strong, which has given us better credit ratings in the province. And again, at the end of the day, I think we’ve been on the right track. So, keeping the economy strong, a rising tide lifts all boats. And hopefully, we continue to kickstart the housing industry by creating some incentives for home buyers. Because that’s the key the Premier always says. It’s gotta go back to the home buyer. Not the builder, not the developer. Whatever we do has to help the home buyer.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
Steve Paikin
Okay, some of you have put questions in here, and I wanna get to some of those here—and let me just see if I can figure out how to do this. So many in the building industry agree with you. The Building Code is king. You’re working—what does it say here? Your work to encourage municipalities to reduce DCs is also appreciated. Do you think more cities will follow Mississauga, and do so?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, let’s say what Mississauga did, and Vaughan did, and I believe Pickering did, in a certain situation—Kevin Ash is here. So, Mississauga and Vaughan reduced their DCs, or Mississauga reduced them in half, and you don’t have to pay your DCs until occupancy. So, we’ve seen some positive results there. Mayor Ash is here. He reduced DCs on a key housing initiative that got 6,000 new homes built. So, we’re seeing where it works, absolutely seeing where it works, as it’s bringing affordability back to the table.
Steve Paikin
This admittedly is a bit of a kind of inside baseball plumbing question here, but the numbers speak for themselves. How will the province find ways to better fund municipalities? Municipalities own 50% of the infrastructure, but get only 9% of the revenue. How can the provincial government change this funding model?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, I think I answered it a little earlier. I really believe the Municipal Service Corps, a public utility, publicly owned, is the way to go. And we’re going down the river with this. We are building the infrastructure in place today. When I say standing these up, we’re measuring twice, three, four times before we cut. But Peel is a pilot project, again. Think about it. We don’t have the money. Our municipalities here can’t raise taxes to meet that need. Way back when, the province used to provide the infrastructure money. That’s how it worked. The days ended in the early ’90s. So, we just can’t keep taxing new home buyers on these DCs. So, finding a new way to fund the infrastructure is the way to go.
Steve Paikin
What are some especially significant challenges in cutting red tape on home construction without compromising on home quality, and how do we work around them?
The Hon. Robert Flack
Well, the Building Code was one. Again, we’re gonna take a section-by-section review of the Code, making sure that it’s standard across the province, whether you’re in Pickering or Pembroke. The bottom line is, the Code is king. No iterations, no specialties. Not in my community’s different. The Code has to be king. The other thing, all these unique studies that we do, they’re time wasters. Everyone believes—and for the lawyers in the room, please forgive me, here—I always call it pride of authorship. When you’re doing a deal, this lawyer has to say this, and this lawyer—you’ve gotta get your words in, and I get it. But there’s a little bit of pride of authorship, I think, across Ontario, where they think their municipality’s unique, and this is why they need these studies. And if you’re a builder in more than one city or community, it can be onerous. And so, we’re limiting, not eliminating fully, but limiting what they can be, and how they should be implemented. It takes too long, it costs too much to build homes.
Steve Paikin
We have less than two minutes to go here, so I wanna ask you a couple of last quick things. The Ford government, of which you are a proud member, was sworn in for the first time on June 26th, 2018. Anything else important happen on that day?
The Hon. Robert Flack
David Peterson swore his government in that day, in 1985.
Steve Paikin
That is true, how do you know that? That is true.
The Hon. Robert Flack
Because I’m not right in the head. I’m a political junkie.
Steve Paikin
You know, that is true. That’s not the answer I thought you were gonna give. The answer I…
The Hon. Robert Flack
It’s my birthday. It’s my birthday.
Steve Paikin
That’s the answer I thought you were gonna—you turned 60 on that day. So, that was the other thing. And now, Jessica, can we get one more thing here? Take a look at the big screens here in the room, everybody, because I hope we have something standing by that we wanna show everybody. Have you got that picture, Jessica, standing by? Now, I put this picture up because 55 years ago last week, the gentleman on the right, Bill Davis, won the PC Leadership Convention to become Ontario’s 18th premier. Who is that fella beside Bill Davis in that picture?
The Hon. Robert Flack
That is me, when I had wavy hair. It just kept waving goodbye. But the bottom line is Bill Davis was a grand man, grand man. He was our MPP in Peel, when I grew up in Streetsville. I love to tell the story, because then when he brought in regional government, Streetsville didn’t like it. My first political—and only political protest I ever did, was George Carlson, now works with Mayor Parrish, and I got a big piece of Bristol board, and we put SOS on it. Stood outside of Streetsville Secondary High School, and said we’ve gotta save our Streetsville. We walked up and down the road back and forth, I don’t think anybody noticed. When nobody came out to listen to us speak, we said to hell with it, we’re going in for lunch. But I love what he did in the next election, Streetsville wasn’t part of his riding anymore. But he was a great premier, and he’s a part of the reason I always aspire to get into politics. And I knew him, I always, I loved it, because when I was with Master Feeds, I would send the Davis family, I’d send the premier, a box of Master Feeds hats, shirts, coats, whatever, and he distributed them to his family members, grandkids, et cetera. And I remember when the COVID shots were taking place, I was getting these calls, because Premier Davis had a Master Feeds hat on, a Master Feeds jacket, a Master Feeds shirt. He said, How do you get him to wear that? And I said, Send them to him. A great premier, just like David Peterson here today. Again, think about Ontario, think about Canada. Ontario has always preserved, and worked hard to protect all of Canada, not just Ontario.
Steve Paikin
That’s our time. Ladies and gentlemen, I know you wanna join me in thanking Rob Flack for coming here today.
The Hon. Robert Flack
Thank you, sir.
Steve Paikin
Thanks, Minister. Well done.
Saurabh Popat
Thank you so much, Steve, and thank you, Minister, for engaging so openly on an issue that touches every corner of our province. And to Premier Peterson, for helping frame the broader context in which these decisions sit. Before we conclude, we welcome a few closing remarks from our Lead Sponsor. Hydro One plays a critical role in building and maintaining the infrastructure that keeps Ontario’s communities connected and growing. It’s my pleasure to invite Bonnie Hiltz, Vice President of Government and Stakeholder Relations at Hydro One to the stage for a few closing remarks. Bonnie.
Note of Appreciation by Bonnie Hiltz, Vice President of Government & Stakeholder Relations, Hydro One
Thank you so much, Minister Flack, for your thoughtful remarks, and thank you above all for your relentless pursuit of keeping the Ontario dream alive of home ownership. Thank you to the Empire Club for this important conversation about housing, growth, and the future we’re all trying to build for Ontario. At Hydro One, we see firsthand how essential the electricity system is to building strong communities. Powering every home, every neighbourhood, and every new development. It’s what makes growth possible. That shows up in the way that we invest in our company. Last year, a full 93% of our investment of multiple billions of dollars in 2024 went to Ontario suppliers. We’re keeping good jobs at home, supporting local manufacturing, who help us build the electricity system that Ontario relies on. We’re making every investment dollar count, improving our standards, improving process. We’re using new technologies, so that we can build this infrastructure that Ontario needs faster. We’re keeping costs prudent, and we’re keeping reliability strong. Today’s event is an important reminder that housing, infrastructure, and economic growth are deeply connected. Hydro One’s an eager partner in building a brighter future for all Ontario. Thank you very much.
Concluding Remarks by Saurabh Popat
Thank you again to our panellists, our sponsors, and of course to all of you for joining us here today. I’d also like to take a moment to recognize the students and young leaders joining us today. Their presence is made possible through the charitable arm, the Empire Club Foundation, and the generosity of our donors. This support enables us to invite future leaders to take part in today’s dialogue, and to empower them to turn knowledge into leadership that shines in communities, boardrooms, and national conversations shaping Canada’s future. We have an exciting membership program as well, so please see our staff at the registration desk for more information.
And I hope you’ll join us for two exciting upcoming events. On March 10th, we’ll welcome Ontario’s Minister of Finance, Minister Peter Bethlenfalvy, for the minister’s Annual Pre-Budget Address, which will give us an early look at how the province plans to strengthen economic resilience and competitiveness in a rapidly shifting global landscape. And later this spring, on April 24th, we’ll host Tim Hodgson for “One Year of Nation-Building, Looking Back and Moving Forward.” This will be a timely conversation about what Canada has set in motion, and what comes next as our country works to build with confidence amid trade uncertainty and global change. Tickets for both events are now on sale.
And as always, as a club of record, all Empire Club events are available to watch and listen to on our website, and the recording of today’s event will be available very shortly. Thank you all for being a part of this important conversation, this meeting is now adjourned.
