May 7, 2025
The Empire Club of Canada Presents
Keeping Business Clean: Combatting Corruption in a World of Change
Chairperson: Jenna Donelson, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Moderator
Rita Trichur, Senior Business Writer & Columnist, The Globe and Mail
Panellists
Dr. Hentie Dirker, Chief ESG & Integrity Officer, AtkinsRéalis
Peter German, President, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform
Allan Rock, President Emeritus, University of Ottawa
Head Table Guests
Jeff Staub, Director of Public Affairs, World Refugee & Migration Council
Welcome Address by Jenna Donelson, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon, everyone. It’s lovely to see you here today. I’m Jenna Donelson, Chair of the Board of the Empire Club, and your host for today’s event.
To formally begin, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering on the Traditional and Treaty Lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. I encourage you all to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you work and live.
Today’s event would not be possible without the generous support of our sponsors. The Empire Club is a non-profit organization. Our sponsors generously support the club. They make events like this possible, and they make viewing complimentary, for those of you that are online. So, please join me, in thanking our Lead Sponsor, the Mindset Foundation. And thank you, as well, to our VIP Reception Sponsor, National Bank of Canada. Thank you, for your support. We also deeply appreciate the ongoing support of our Lead Season Sponsors, Bruce Power, and Hydro One, and our VIP Reception Season Sponsors, Ellis Don, and Waste Connections of Canada. Thank you, for continuing to support us. And finally, thank you to our Media Partner, the Toronto Star, and our AV Partner, Bespoke Audio Visual. We really appreciate you.
If you have a question for our speakers, please scan the QR code that you will find on your program, or through the Q&A function, if you’re online. For those of you online, if you require technical assistance, reach out to our staff using the chat function.
So, we are here today to talk about an issue that costs the global economy more than $5 trillion each year. Beyond the staggering financial losses, corruption erodes trust, deepens inequality, and diverts resources from the communities that need it most. At the Empire Club, we’ve been convening conversations that shape Canadian public life for over a century. And so, we can see how these ideas morph and evolve. In fact, in 2005, Allan Rock stood at this very podium, and called for bold reforms to restore global credibility, and strengthen international institutions. Back then, we were reckoning with scandals like the UN’s Oil for Food Program, and pushing for more transparency in multilateral systems. That was 20 years ago. So much has changed and evolved, over 20 years, and corruption is no exception. Today’s schemes are faster, more global, and more digitally-enabled. What once needed a suitcase of cash, and a backroom meeting, can now be done with a few shell companies, a private server, and a well-timed wire transfer. In other words, the stakes haven’t changed, but the tools certainly have.
And that’s exactly why conversations like today’s matter. Because even as systems grow more complex, our commitment to accountability, ethical business, and public trust, must evolve alongside them. Thankfully, we have a panel of experts with us today, who will help us explore those growing complexities of corruption risks, especially for the private sector, and how we can keep up, in the fight against corruption.
And this event today would not be possible without the support of our Lead Sponsor, the Mindset Social Innovation Foundation. Founded in 2006, the Mindset Foundation is a Canadian charity committed to advancing human rights, and supporting social innovators, those working hard to create more just and equitable systems. Mindset also supports organizations like the World Refugee and Migration Council, whose leadership and research shine a light on issues of governance, accountability, and human dignity. So, we are pleased, today, to be joined by Jeff Staub, Director of Public Affairs from the World Refugee and Migration Council, to say a few words. Will you all join me, in welcoming Jeff to the stage?
Opening Remarks by Jeff Staub, Director of Public Affairs, World Refugee & Migration Council
Thank you, Jenna. I’m happy to be here, and representing Fen Hampson, our president, who couldn’t make it today, but also, Alison Lawton, from the Mindset Foundation. She’s been an amazing supporter of our work. During a 2017 consultation meeting in Tanzania, the World Refugee Council—now known as the World Refugee and Migration Council—was captivated by a story of a young, rural, non-governmental organization worker. He told us that a mere 5% of designated aid for refugees actually reached them, due to pervasive corruption—a theme echoing across our visits to refugee sites in Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere. Corruption, like a giant leech, is draining the lifeblood of assistance for the displaced.
As a council, we realize that anti-corruption efforts must align with aiding the needy. Corruption is not just a factor in many of the globe’s current dire refugee and security crisis. Corrupt regimes are responsible for some of the worst human rights atrocities, including the forcible displacement of their citizens. Many terrorist movements are financed almost entirely by corrupt economic enterprises, often connected to narcotics, and other smuggling activities. Corruption is an insidious cancer, that affects the health of society, and polity on a worldwide scale.
A country’s wealth and prosperity do not inoculate it from the scourge of corruption. In fact, according to a global report by Transparency International, corruption is now at an all-time high in the United States, the world’s biggest and richest economy. But the United States is not alone. Stories of corruption abound in Canada, the UK, Germany, Korea, Japan, and elsewhere. Corruption exists in many forms: bribery, lobbying, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, parochialism, patronage, and influence-peddling, graft, and embezzlement, as well. In a discussion of corruption, it is also important to understand the role of so-called enablers of corruption: the financial, real estate, and legal communities, who sometimes look the other way, as they assist corrupt elites in criminal gains, to launder their ill-gotten gains, by helping them set up shell companies, acquire property, engage in high-value art purchases, and other issues.
UN Secretary-General António Guterres, in a figure that is widely cited, argued that the global cost of corruption is at least $2.6 trillion annually, or 5% of the global Gross Domestic Product. Adding that, according to the World Bank, businesses and individuals pay more than $1 trillion in bribes every year. Think about that. A variety of studies have since disputed this figure, but it’s probably not far off. In one study, the OECD attempted to analyze the transaction values of bribes paid by large multinational corporations, and concluded that bribes equalled 10.9% of the total transaction value, on average, and 34.5% of the profits equaled to $13.8 million per bribe. But the study also recognized that, given the complexity and concealed nature of corrupt transactions, this is, without a doubt, the mere tip of the iceberg.
An influential study by the African Development Bank found that Africa loses about $148 billion to corruption every year, and that between $20 billion and $40 billion per year are stolen by public officials. The study was based on assessing funds held by public officials and their relatives in offshore accounts. Other studies have taken a sectoral approach, to measure the social costs of corruption. For example, a report by Transparency International concluded that corruption in the health sector kills an estimated 140,000 children a year. It fuels the global rise in antimicrobial resistance, and hinders the fight against HIV/AIDS, and other diseases.
Arriving at a single indicator, or even a set of indicators of grand corruption, is also challenging, because of the wide variety of illicit behaviours that fall under the general rubric of grand corruption. They include, for example, illegal tax and commercial practices, revenues generated by international trade of illicit goods and services, and other theft-type activities, including terrorism financing, or crimes involving the illicit transfer of assets between two or more actors engaged in criminal activities.
During the course of our work, the World Refugee and Migration Council has been committed to pursuing solutions, and investing time and resources to address corruption, and assist the forcibly displaced. It’s really a form of cross-silo bridging, our work. One of our ideas for tackling corruption has been to promote an international effort to freeze funds held by corrupt political leaders and their associates, and redirect them to help the victim of those crimes, including those who have been forcibly displaced, fostering accountability, and asset recovery. Current global efforts to seize Russian assets, which are currently frozen in Western banks, to help Ukraine and its citizens at home and abroad, had their genesis in the work of our council.
Today, we will hear from a group of distinguished experts about what Canada—specifically, the business community and government—can do to tackle corruption here at home, and by supporting new international initiatives. Thank you.
Jenna Donelson
Thank you, Jeff, for those insights, and for really setting the stage for this conversation. And once again, thank you to the Mindset Foundation, for making today’s conversation possible. So, on that note, it is now my pleasure to introduce our moderator and panellists. I’ll briefly introduce them, and then call them to the stage. Our moderator today is Rita Trichur, an award-winning journalist, and Senior Business Writer at The Globe and Mail. She’s covered Canadian banks, financial services, and business trends at both The Globe, and The Wall Street Journal. We’re lucky to have her bringing her sharp insights, to today’s conversation.
And joining her is Hentie Dirker, Chief ESG and Integrity Officer at AtkinsRéalis. He leads national anti-corruption efforts, and is past chair of the Ethics Centre of Canada, working to embed integrity across sectors. Peter German is President of the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform, and a former RCMP deputy commissioner. He is one of Canada’s foremost experts on money laundering, and the author of The Dirty Money Reports in BC. And finally, we welcome back Allan Rock, President Emeritus of the University of Ottawa, former federal cabinet minister, and past Canadian ambassador to the UN. He’s also a member of the World Refugee and Migration Council, and has long been a champion for transparency and justice. Your panel for today. Please join me, in welcoming them to the stage.
Rita Trichur, Senior Business Writer & Columnist, The Globe and Mail
Hi there, everyone. If you heard, my name is Rita Trichur. I’m a Senior Business Writer and Columnist with The Globe and Mail. It is my absolute pleasure to be here today, and to be the moderator for this very important discussion, with these very esteemed panellists. We’re going to jump right in, because we have a lot of ground to cover.
We just got the macro view from Jeff about this issue. Here’s another piece of data: when measured against OECD standards on risk management, Canada fulfilled 76% of criteria for regulations, and 23% for practice, in 2024. And that compares to an OECD average of 67%, and 33%, respectively. So, I want to hear from each of you, to start. In your view, how does Canada compare to other industrialized countries, on combating corruption? And Peter, I’m going to start with you.
Peter German, President, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform
Great. Thanks, Rita. And a great pleasure to be here, and thanks to the Empire Club, and the sponsors. It’s much appreciated, because this is an important topic. So, I don’t know if we should actually be comparing ourselves to other countries. Canada is a very fortunate country. We are an economic powerhouse in our own right, we’re a wealthy country, by comparison, to the rest of the world. And we should be as good as you can be, when it comes to anti-corruption. So, I think it’s fair to say we can do better, and it does look as if the numbers are slipping a bit. So. What Canada really has to do is, it’s a bit of a reversal.
But I would take it one step further. It’s not so much about what’s taking place in Canada, but Canada has a footprint around the world, in many of our industries—mining is a prime example of that. We’re very good at mining, and we do that internationally—extractive industries, generally. So, we have to be that much better, internationally, and set a standard. And many times, we have failed in that. So. There’s lots of work to be done.
Rita Trichur
Okay. Allan?
Allan Rock
You mentioned the ranking of Canada, under Transparency International’s grading system. I’ll say two things about that, Rita. First of all, if you compare today’s number, which I think is 76%, to that of 2012, when it was 84%, we’ve diminished, we’ve come down in the index, very substantially. The second thing I would note is that Transparency International’s assessment deals only with the public sector, not with the private sector, or even transnational crime. So, we’re looking at a snapshot of one part of the Canadian performance. In recent years, difficulties with respect to government procurement, I think, have caused, certainly scandals, when it comes to—what’s that, the one where you come into the country, the app?
Peter German
Oh. ArriveCan. Right.
Allan Rock
ArriveCan. Thank you. ArriveCan app.
Peter German
And why did you think I had some responsibility for that?
Allan Rock
You follow the subject so closely, I just assumed. No, but there’s that one, and there are others that have caused controversies that have no doubt resulted in a reduction of our numbers. But the point is that we can do better. And as Peter says, we should be doing better—here, and around the world.
Rita Trichur
Hentie, do you have any thoughts on, you know, Canada’s strengths and weaknesses, when combating corruption?
Dr. Hentie Dirker, Chief ESG & Integrity Officer, AtkinsRéalis
Yeah, sure, thanks. And thanks for having me today. I’ve got a couple of hats. I’m here today as the Chief Integrity Officer for AtkinsRéalis; I’m also Vice Chair at the business, at OECD, for the Anti-Corruption Committee. So, I get to interact with a lot of other companies, and businesses globally, and tend to see a lot of different, different kind of panel discussions. I think we can do better. Where Canada can do better is, I think there needs to be more enforcement. Enforcement needs to happen quicker—it really takes a very, very long time for cases to come to the court system, which is unfair to companies, I believe. And there needs to be new enforcement on that.
From, from a Canadian company’s expectation perspective, I think there needs to be more guidance out there. You know, entities like the United States, and the UK, France, and even Brazil, has put a lot of guidance out there for companies, in terms of what goods look like, from a compliance perspective. So, I think we need more guidance, and more transparency around the processes, as it relates to remediation agreements in the country.
And then lastly, really, just a closer working relationship where Canada can do better is between the regulatory environment, and the business environment, is a closer working relationship, to understand better what compliance or integrity programs looks like, what good looks like, and having continuous feedback between both the public and the private sector, which we don’t see enough of.
Rita Trichur
I really like this, that we are not just outlining the dynamics of the problem, but potential solutions—and I hope that those of you in the audience will find this to be very, very informative. One potential solution—Allan, I want to talk to you about this—can you describe the nature of the International Court that is being proposed, to deal with corruption? And how would it be created, what would its jurisdiction be, and where does Canada fit in?
Allan Rock
The International Anti-Corruption Court was first proposed about 15 years ago. And since then, support for the idea has been growing, internationally. I’ll take as my point of departure in talking about the court what was said by Hentie just now, that key to anti-corruption efforts is the enforcement of laws. Without enforcement, we’ll get nowhere. The problem with corruption internationally is not that we lack laws. We have plenty of laws—in fact, the United Nations Convention Against Corruption has been signed by 189 countries, and that convention requires each of those countries to enact domestic laws, criminalizing each of 11 different bribery and corruption crimes. So, the laws are there. The problem is, the kleptocrats, who have many countries captive, control the police, the investigators, and the courts. So. It’s not likely that the laws are going to be enforced against them. What we’re lacking is an independent institution, operating on the basis of complementarity, by which I mean, it’s up to the country to enforce its own laws, but if a country cannot or will not do so, the International Court will take jurisdiction, like the International Criminal Court.
As to how it might be created, it’ll be created by treaty, as the ICC was created in 1997-‘98. And right now, there’s a group working under the chair of Justice Richard Goldstone, from South Africa, drafting the treaty. We’ve been at it—I’m a member of that group; we’ve been at that work, now, for three years. It’s tough work, but we’re getting there. We hope to have a draft treaty this calendar year, which we’ll share with supportive countries. We have support in Canada. In the election of 2021, both the Conservative and the Liberal parties, in their platform, endorsed the idea; said they would support it. More recently, that’s faded a bit, but I think that’s because we haven’t got a treaty to show them yet. The International Anti-Corruption Court is also supported by the UK—the Foreign Secretary David Lammy is strongly in support, Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown is one of the moving forces behind it. It has increasing support in Africa, and in South America, and that is primarily because, apart from the criminal prosecution aspect of the court, it will also have a civil aspect.
And if I may say, just briefly, what I mean by that is: where money is stolen from a country, and on deposit in a different country, there’s often a dispute about the return of the money to the victim country. Say Switzerland, for example, or Canada, or Singapore, had money in its banks stolen by, let’s say, Maduro, in Venezuela. At a certain point, Venezuela is going to want the money back, and Switzerland, or Canada, or Singapore might say, “Well, you can’t, because you’re still corrupt.” Or maybe there’s a new regime, which isn’t corrupt, but there’s some dispute about the amount, or the entitlement. That is often difficult to resolve, as between countries.
The idea of a civil chamber in the International Anti-Corruption Court is that it would be available to receive, consider, and adjudicate all of those issues, as between countries, with respect to the return of stolen assets. If the country was still corrupt, the court would have jurisdiction to take the money, and repurpose it, by giving it to an NGO, or a charitable or humanitarian cause, for the benefit of the victims of the regime. So, in all of those respects, we believe the International Anti-Corruption Court is needed, for the purpose of enforcement, and would be welcomed, as value-added to the international community.
Rita Trichur
Okay. I would like to start talking about what’s going on south of the border. Because the need for the International Court is really underscored and highlighted by what we are seeing to the south of us. The Trump administration is rolling back a slew of regulations. It has nixed beneficial ownership reporting requirements for US companies, it has halted enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and fired more than a dozen independent government watchdogs—and that was just in the last few months. So, Canada tends to follow the United States’ lead on a lot of issues. I want to hear from each of you, whether you think Canada will follow this time. And if it does, what are the risks in doing so? And Peter, I’m going to start with you.
Peter German
Yeah. Thanks, Rita. I don’t think that’s going to happen. Quite frankly, I think you may find that there’s an unintended consequence of what’s happening in the US, as I think we’re already seeing in some other sectors, and that is a, basically a bounce back; that in fact Europe, Canada, and other countries, will actually, hopefully, redouble their efforts in this area.
Corruption is bad for business. And I think businesses, internationally, have come to recognize that, over the last 30 years—50 years, since this initiative really started, with the United States in the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. So, businesses have changed, internationally. They recognize the importance of an anti-corruption mindset. And it’s bad for business. Corruption is bad for business. So. I don’t think that’s going to just disappear, because Trump eliminated the kleptocracy unit in the Department of Justice, and various other parts of the Department of Justice that were dealing with this type of crime. So, I would actually hope that we have the contra-effect.
Rita Trichur
Allan, what do you think? Do you think that we will follow suit, or we will plot our own path on this issue?
Allan Rock
I think we’ll plot our own path, but we should be cautious. Under Trump, the American administration has descended into chaos, and cruelty, and corruption. Anne Applebaum, who I like a lot, writes for the Atlantic Magazine, has a Substack column. And this week, she gave a list of the examples of open, blatant corruption, on the part of Trump personally, his family, and his lickspittles, those people surrounding him. And the level and extent of the corruption is just beyond shocking. But I think what this says is that America is descending into an authoritarianism that is, certainly, foreign to us, and it’s going to be ruinous for them. They’re letting it happen. That’s why I say I don’t think we’re going to follow the example. I think they’ve reminded us how fragile democracy is, how vigilant we must be, in its defence, and how we must avoid what they have gotten themselves into. Corruption is a byproduct of the authoritarianism of Trump, and his regime. And we have to make sure, in Canada, we keep a healthy democracy, a respect for each other, and so avoid the consequences that they have to deal with now.
Rita Trichur
Hentie, you’re in a great position to answer this next question. The Trump administration’s move to roll back the anti-corruption efforts are creating a predicament for Canadian businesses that operate on both sides of the border. You know, from your vantage point, how should they be navigating this very complicated issue?
Dr. Hentie Dirker
That’s a good question. And I think the knee-jerk reaction is that, you know, the sky is falling. But I don’t think the sky is falling. And the reason why I’m saying that is, if a company—and I’m talking about a well-governed company, with a board that gets it, and does global business—if they’ve built a compliance regime within their companies, with only looking at the FCPA kind of legislation, or the enforcement of that, then they haven’t really done it for the right reasons. As Peter said, you know, corruption is bad for business. It’s not sustainable. A lot of companies that have conducted into that no longer exist, or have had to change completely, in order to proceed. So, it’s not going to go away. The law is still there; it’s just not being enforced. Four years, five years time, another regime might come in, they might start enforcing on that.
So, again, having spoken to a lot of global companies based in the US, I think everybody is at status quo. And it’s actually a doubling down. Because now, what they find—less so, for us, from a Canadian perspective, but from a US perspective— is because externally, in high-risk markets, there’s now perception that, hey, US companies can go around and bribe, and corrupt, that the demand side is putting a lot more pressure now on employees. So, their compliance programs, actually, have now a much bigger emphasis on communication and training, and arming their employees with the right tools, and reactions, that if and when they get to those situations, that they know how they can and should react. So, there’s a lot of additional things that they can actually get involved with, from that perspective.
And I think, lastly, with the US taking maybe a little bit of a step back, it opens up for other countries to take a step forward. And we’ve already seen it with, from a UK, Switzerland, and France—French perspective, I think they’ve put together a working group, to look at bribery and corruption, foreign bribery and corruption. So, I think it’s up to us, as a country. And then also, from a private business perspective, to get involved with collective action globally, to get involved with doing the right thing, and kind of building that momentum, in that direction.
Rita Trichur
Peter, what more can private industry do to fight corruption, both domestically and internationally?
Peter German
Well, it just so happens that we put together a little brochure, a really easy to read, straightforward little guide on corruption in the private sector. And that’s actually-I say we; it’s actually the World Refugee and Migration Council—and in it, we included recommendations, domestic and international, very simple ones, that companies can look at. I don’t know how many of them are on the tables, but just by way of example, education, know your customer, practicing due diligence, knowing the red flags of your industry, understanding the importance of compliance—we often talk about profit centres, and that compliance isn’t a profit centre. I would argue that in this day and age, when government is looking at issues such as corruption, compliance is virtually the equivalent of a profit centre—because if you don’t pay attention there, you’re not going to have profits, for certain. Enhancing audit, and board and director accountability. So. Those are just a few recommendations, domestically. And we have similar ones, internationally, where of course you’re looking at human rights, and related issues abroad.
So, there’s lots that industry can do, that businesses can do, and it’s pretty simple stuff. And it’s in many cases, things that business, good businesses already are practicing—although they may not be doing it for this specific reason, or aware that they’re doing it, you know, anti-corruption is a byproduct of their efforts. And so, I would recommend this little guide to you.
Rita Trichur
So, it’s true, in every story that I’ve written on, where something has gone wrong, it’s because somebody has ignored internal audit compliance, or somebody on the board has not taken their concerns seriously of those two, and has not been forceful enough with their fellow board members. Allan, did you have anything to add, in terms of what Canadian companies can do?
Allan Rock
Well, I’m thinking back to my years at the Department of Justice, and when, you know, looking at the provisions in the Criminal Code, trying to make sure that the criminal law was an effective instrument, so it provided a credible threat of prosecution, if there was wrongdoing. As Peter knows from his experience with the RCMP, and the expertise of his institute, there are some deficiencies in Canadian criminal law, when it comes to anti-corruption efforts, both in terms of the prohibitions, but also the enforcement, and the way you get things through the court, to the point of conviction.
I think we have to take a continuous, critical look at the Canadian criminal law, to make sure it’s fit for purpose. Corruption is becoming more sophisticated, given modern technology, as Jeff was saying in his opening statement. I think the criminal law sometimes is slow to catch up, and keep pace. So, I think having the Law Commission look critically at the provisions in the Criminal Code dealing with corporate and business corruption, making sure that they’re current, contemporaneous, and effective. That’s an important step in the whole process.
Rita Trichur
Okay, Hentie, a question for you. How can businesses ensure they’re not falling into corrupt practices, and you know, what is your top piece, or pieces of advice, for changing the corporate mindset on this issue? Because there’s a lot of reluctance.
Dr. Hentie Dirker
I always say bad people do bad things. And you need to make sure—so, one of the first things, from a corporate perspective, and especially, big global organizations that’s got thousands of people globally—is the chances are that you’re going to have bad apples within your company. So, the first thing is to make, from a communication and awareness perspective, that people around those people feel safe in speaking up. And we saw a recent case here, from a Canadian bank perspective, where things were happening, and people kind of knew what was happening, but nobody was speaking up—and that’s happened in the past with other companies, as well. So. Making sure, charity starts at home, making sure within your company people speak up, if they see something going wrong, and you’ve got the mechanisms for that.
Secondly, is when you hire people, making sure that you hire the right people, that you don’t hire people that’s bullies, who harasses people, and rule by fear. Because again, we’ve seen that—and especially, in companies where I’ve been—and it’s those people that get away with these things, because they create that unsafe space, and nobody speaks up, but it only goes for a period of time. Then secondly is, once you’ve made sure from an internal perspective you’ve got communication, training, that safe environment, is how you do business in high-risk jurisdictions, your due diligence—everything that Peter has in that document—making sure that you understand who you deal with. And especially, in the higher-risk kind of relationships that you have, that you really make sure that you understand what are they going to provide to you, how are you going to pay for that, is there any type of success fee. A lot of companies, in the past, wouldn’t know how to do business in a specific country. They would reach out, there would be somebody in the country saying, as an agent, “Hey, I can help you get business, as long as you pay me X percentage of commission.” Then things would happen, and the company would get business, but nobody would know where that money went. So, a lot of companies have moved away from that model, because I think the lesson learned there is, if you don’t know how to do business in a country, then don’t do business in that country. First, make sure that you understand it, and don’t rely on third parties to facilitate, in order to get to do business in those countries.
And then finally, is really just, as a company, making sure that you work with other companies that has the same values, and the same kind of means of how they want to conduct business, if you do go into high-risk jurisdictions. And we were talking earlier, you know, there’s an organization—for example, you’ve got the TI’s of the world, you’ve got UN Global Compact, you’ve got the Basel Institute of Good Corporate Governance. And what I do is, when we move into a high-risk jurisdiction, I look between these different organizations, and reach out, to find out who in those countries can I speak to, that share the same kind of values, in order to understand the landscape better. So, there’s a lot of mechanisms out there. Best practice sharing that you can do, in order to navigate a global, corrupt kind of world, so to put it, you know, in a very safe way.
QUESTION & ANSWER
Rita Trichur
Okay. It’s true that some of these non-financial risks, like anti-corruption, or the corruption risk, can very quickly translate into a financial risk for companies, if they’re not careful. So, I appreciate your insights on that. Okay, we have some, lots of questions from the audience, so I’m going to jump in and get to those, as many of those as possible. Allan, the first one’s for you: how is the International Anti-Corruption Court responding to the lessons from other treaty-based international courts, which have now had 50-plus years in existence, and reveal limitations, for example, ICC?
Allan Rock
One of the key movers in the creation of the International Anti-Corruption Court is Justice Richard Goldstone, to whom I referred. Richard, 5 years ago, produced a report for the International Criminal Court States Parties, evaluating its first 20 years of existence. He identified strengths and weaknesses. He talked about needless expense, low productivity, and many procedural impediments toward the efficient functioning of the court. We are drawing from those lessons, as we design the International Anti-Corruption Court.
For example, its procedure will be much simplified, there will be no pretrial chamber. Second, we’re going to avoid marble palaces in The Hague, in favour of using courtrooms in the states parties’ own countries—so, for example, Canada might make a courtroom available to the IACC, for a prosecution here. Similarly, we’re going to be seconding judges from the courts of states parties, so they won’t be appointed, at $300,000-a-year, to sit in The Hague, and wait for a case to come in the door; they will be retained only when a case is ready to be prepared for, and then tried. So, we’re trying to make it as efficient, cost-effective as possible, make its procedure as straightforward as we can, and in all other respects, try to learn the lessons from 25 years of the ICC.
We think we can do it. The treaty will be designed to produce the kind of court I just described. It’ll be published for comment within the next six to eight months. And we hope to learn from the dialogue with the public, and the profession, as they respond to the draft. But the objective is, certainly, to build upon what we’ve learned over this last couple of decades.
Peter German
Let me just add to that, Rita, just very briefly. Right now, the international community does not have a methodology for returning assets to the countries from which they were stolen by kleptocrats and others. It’s all ad hoc. It’s done between countries, it’s done with the assistance of NGOs, and so forth. So, really, what this proposal, from my perspective, it appears to be doing, is creating that structure, that just doesn’t exist today.
Rita Trichur
That’s true, because we don’t have mutual legal assistant treaties with every country in the world, where there could have been stolen assets brought into Canada, as an example. That’s, that’s a very good point. Here’s another audience question, that I think is really interesting—and Peter, maybe you’ll be the one to answer this—how can communities and their members, for example, Iranian Canadians, help address this important issue related to corruption? There’s often not a lot of trust between newcomers to Canada, and the police. You know, what can be done?
Peter German
Well, that’s a really interesting one. Look, what, 99% of people who come to Canada, come to Canada for the right reasons. And when I speak about transnational organized crime to groups, and so forth, I always talk about Caucasian-based organized crime—the Hells Angels, for example, motorcycle gangs, that sort of thing. Every ethnicity has its own homegrown organized crime. And it tends to be that, as new communities come to a country such as Canada, organized crime will come with them. But they will plague people within their own emigre group, cultural group, and they start to emerge out of that emigre group, when they have a knowledge of the language, and make their connections. And then, you see the alliances that develop between organized crime of a particular ethnic background, and, let’s say, Caucasian-based organized crime, the Hells Angels, and international.
So, really, I think, you know, all we can really expect is that people coming to Canada, you know, come for the right reasons, and that we have effective law enforcement that deals with organized crime. And quite frankly, picking up on earlier comments, we are not very good at the effectiveness issue, in terms of bringing cases to court, and getting convictions. We are not good at that in Canada. And as Allan alluded to issues with our criminal law, I would take it one step further: I don’t think it’s just the law, I don’t think it’s the judges, the police, the prosecutors; it’s our criminal justice system, holistically. We have problems. We can’t make it to the finish line, on a lot of this. And that has nothing to do with who the particular organized crime group is, or from what community they may come from. We are not very good at finishing the play, and we have to be better at it. Because when we’re not good at it, other countries, such as our neighbours to the south, see it and know it.
Rita Trichur
Okay. Another great question from the audience: are anti-corruption methods effective against nations like Russia, when they push them outside of global institutions that regulate them? Hentie, maybe I’ll get you to answer this, given your association with the OECD.
Dr. Hentie Dirker
Yeah. Good question. Actually, I’ve got no clue. So, I would not be the right person to answer that question.
Rita Trichur
Either one of you want to jump in? Allan?
Allan Rock
Well, there are rogue nations, Russia included— the United States, increasingly—that show disdain for laws, period. And that’s one of the reasons why an independent International Anti-Corruption Court would be very useful, in a case like that. What do you do with a guy who has nuclear weapons, but who is a kleptocrat, who is a pillar of corruption, who surrounds himself with corrupt people, who has no regard for international law, invades a neighbour—in transgression of the most fundamental rules of the UN Charter—commits war crimes, and then thumbs his nose at the international community? He’s a rogue. And we’ve always had to deal with people like that, and we always will. I suggest all we can do is the best we can. And what I suggest is that we establish an international forum, in which we can, hopefully, cause him some pain in return, by confiscating assets, by limiting his ability to move around the world, by imposing sanctions that will hurt, make him unpopular at home, and hopefully, endanger his rule. It ain’t easy. I mean, I spent time at the United Nations, as Canada’s ambassador, and we dealt with a lot of these crooks, and despots, and criminals from around the world…
Peter German
What do you really think, Allan?
Allan Rock
…and it’s frustrating. But we got to do the best we can. And the law is one of the instruments we have to use.
Peter German
And can I just pick up on this issue of sanctions?
Rita Trichur
M’hm (affirmative).
Peter German
It’s actually a good example of effectiveness, or the lack thereof. There’s no good—I mean, it’s great to have sanctions. But if you can’t enforce those sanctions—Canada really hasn’t been enforcing its sanctions. It’s been naming various organizations, and so forth. When I flew in, the other day, into Toronto at Pearson, there is that Russian plane rotting on the tarmac. Now, what purpose is that plane ever going to serve Canada, now? The thing is probably soon not going to be airworthy, no one’s going to want it, and it’s stuck in a legal battle, you know—and it’s been there now for what, three years? We have to be more effective at dealing with these things, getting to the finish line, or else people just sort of laugh at you, and say, you know, it’s all talk.
Dr. Hentie Dirker
And now that I’ve had time to think about it, from a private company perspective, is unfortunately, in the absence of legal systems operating efficiently and effectively in countries, big global companies like certainty; they don’t like risk. So, you find that global companies de-risk, and they stop doing business in those countries. And typically, it’s not for the reasons of bribery and corruption; it’s more related to the legal system. Because if you do work there, you want to get paid—and if you don’t get paid, you want to recourse, in order to get paid, which you can’t get, if the legal system doesn’t work. So, unfortunately, I think you are seeing that global organizations and companies would rather, then, not do business in those countries, which kind of exaggerates the whole situation, in the end.
Rita Trichur
Okay. I’m going to go back to my list of questions, before pivoting back to audience questions. As Allan mentioned earlier, Canada had a score of 75 on Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index, in 2024, and that marked a slight year-over-year decline. And that means, Canada started this year ranking 15 out of 180 countries. Given your druthers, what would you like to see the new federal government do, to better tackle corruption? You know, what’s on your wish list, for the Carney government? Who wants to start?
Allan Rock
Well, I mentioned critical assessment of the criminal law; Peter would enlarge that to the justice system, more generally—I wouldn’t object to that—but we have judicial decisions like Jordan, that you and I have talked about, that make it necessary for us to put more resources into the criminal justice system, so we can get cases to trial within the prescribed time. So, looking at the criminal law is one thing.
I think also, looking at our whole procurement practices in the federal government. They’re slow, they’re halting, they’re imperfect, and sometimes, they result in, you know, if not corruption, then questionable practices, that result in criminal charges. So, I think looking at procurement; I think harmonizing federal and provincial efforts, as well. I’ll give you an example, Rita. There is now a federal requirement for the disclosure of beneficial ownership of corporations. That’s federal. But there are only two provinces that have beneficial ownership requirements, and that’s British Columbia and Québec. So, harmonizing that throughout the country, as they tackle the inter-provincial trade barriers—I might add this to the list by July 1st—and have every province in the country have mandatory disclosure of beneficial ownership. That’d be helpful, as well. So, there’s a lot to be done.
And more important than anything else, I think it’s leadership from the top. Setting the tone. Washington will show us today what happens when you have a crook at the top, who’s shameless, and the example he sets, and the tone he sets, for everybody. Well, we need someone at the top of our government—and I think we have someone at the top of our government—who will set the right tone of probity, of honesty, in dealing with public affairs, and dealing with the public. I think that’s true of our political leaders, generally, and we should make sure it stays that way.
Peter German
If I could just add to add to that. What I’ve found through the years, 31 years in law enforcement, when the light is shone on law enforcement, or the criminal justice system, then things get done. But when the spotlight goes away, it disappears. A lot of police officers will tell you that Trump’s comments about the border were actually welcomed. Because all of a sudden, things happened, all of a sudden, we started strengthening the border. But we’ve got a lot more to do, and we wrote a report in 2023 about ports, in Canada. You may not know it, but we have no port police in Canada. There is no one guarding our ports, other than private security, and electronic, you know, apparatus. And yet, we know that there are organized crime folks working in our ports. So. What does that say? Well, what it says on the West Coast is that 30% of cargo coming in in containers transships into the US, through trucks or trains, and it’s up to the US to do our job for us.
So, we can criticize Trump—and we do, and his methodology, and he probably has never even thought about ports—but it does, all of a sudden, cause us to be a little bit introspective, and say, “Okay, what can we do better?” Because the minute the spotlight goes away, we go back to having no port police, and organized crime in our ports, if you see what I mean.
Rita Trichur
Okay. This is great, because there was actually an audience question about the ports…
Peter German
Oh.
Rita Trichur
…so, you’ve served two purposes, there. Hentie, we only have…
Dr. Hentie Dirker
Sure.
Rita Trichur
…a minute-and-a-half left, but I’m going to give you the last word. What’s on your wish list, for the Carney government?
Dr. Hentie Dirker
I think for me it’s just, as we’ve said ad nauseum, is enforcement needs to happen, it needs to happen quicker. It’s unfair to companies, if things go on forever and ever. There needs to be a line in the sand, so that companies can move forward. And we need additional enforcement for a, you know, from that perspective. And lastly, also just working together, with, between the public and the private sector, I think, needs to be more, as it relates to remediation agreements, bribery and corruption, compliance programs. There needs to be more guidance out there. There needs to be more transparency around the process. Because as I said, boards and companies don’t like uncertainty. And the more certainty that you can give, the more disclosures you’ll get, the more enforcement you’ll get, and we’ll find the bad guys, and the right people will go to prison.
Rita Trichur
And I’ll write about it in the Globe…
Dr. Hentie Dirker
And you’ll write about it.
Peter German
There you go. And we’ll all read it.
Rita Trichur
…and also, we’ll keep the pressure up that way. Okay, we’re going to have to leave the conversation there. Thank you so much, Hentie, Peter, and Allan, for your really insightful comments, and really focusing on solutions. And I’m just going to throw it back to Jenna.
Allan Rock
Thank you, Rita.
Peter German
Thank you.
Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Jenna Donelson
Thank you, Rita, Hentie, Peter, and Allan. What an engaging, and as you noted, Rita, solution-oriented discussion today. So, let’s give our panel one more round of applause.
Before we wrap up, I just want to note that we have some special guests in the room. We have students here from –I know we have them from Queen’s University, we have them from, I think, the University of Toronto, from the Munk School. Thank you, for being a part of this conversation today. I’m glad you’re here.
And I also want to note, too, just make sure that you take your handy, concise, action plan home, that Peter gave us. Thank you, for giving us all that, for a little bit of evening reading tonight. Thank you all for being a part of this discussion. Thank you, again, to our sponsors. We really appreciate you making this possible.
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As a club of record, the Empire Club events are all available to watch and listen to on our website. A recording of this event will be available shortly. Thank you all, for being a part of this important conversation. I wish you a wonderful afternoon. This meeting is now adjourned.
