The Empire Club of Canada Presents
Getting It Done: The Women Who Have Thrived Against All Odds
Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Moderator
Dr. Deborah Rosati, Founder & CEO, Women Get On Board
Panellists
Arlene Dedier, Principal, Executive Vice President, Canadian Practice Leader, Project Management Services, Avison Young
Julie Di Lorenzo, President, Mirabella Development Corporation
Chantal Gosselin, Corporate Director, Various TSX-listed Mining Companies
Head Table Guests
Maryam Aziz, Chief Operating Officer, Board Diversity Network
Dino Chiesa, Past Chair, CMHC Lead Director, GFL
Jenna Donelson , Executive Director, Government Relations, Queens University, 1st Vice-Chair, Empire Club of Canada
Sabrina Fiorellino, JD, Chief Executive Officer, Director, Co-founder, Fero International Inc.
Cordelia Clarke Julien, Assistant Deputy Minister, Social Assistance Programs – Province of Ontario Chair, Board of Trustees, Lakeridge Health
Jodi Kovitz , CEO, HRPA
duction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation’s leaders, alongside with those of the world’s top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.
It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.
Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Empire Club of Canada, and to our celebration of International Women’s Day. My name is Sal Rabbani, and it’s an honour to stand before our community, as Chair of the Board of Directors of the Empire Club of Canada.
To formally begin this afternoon, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering today on the traditional and treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabeg, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you work and live.
Our mandate at the Empire Club is to engage and advance the dialogue on what matters most to Canadians. For more than 120 years, we’ve provided a forum for speakers to engage, debate, educate, and inspire. Two days from now, on March 8th, it’s International Women’s Day, a yearly celebration of women excellence, and a reminder that gender equality is one of the most effective ways to build healthier, more prosperous, and more inclusive communities. I want to recognize the Empire Club’s distinguished women past presidents, board of directors, staff, and volunteers. Thank you for your contributions, and for always showing us that gender equality is one of the most effective ways to build a healthier and more prosperous future.
A big thank you to our guests for joining us on the Empire Club stage today: Arlene Dedier, Principal, Executive Vice President, Canadian Practice Leader, Project Management Services at Avison Young, Julie Di Lorenzo, President of Mirabella Development Corporation, Chantal Gosselin, Corporate Director of various TSX-listed companies active in the mineral industry, and Dr. Deborah Rosati, Founder and CEO of Women Get On Board, who will moderate today’s conversation.
The Empire Club is a not-for-profit organization, and we’d like to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the club, and make these events possible and complimentary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our VIP Reception Sponsors, Bruce Power and Wheaton Precious Metals, and thank you to our Season Sponsors, AWS, Bruce Power, and Hydro One. Thank you.
For those of you joining us online, if you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen. We’re accepting questions from the audience for our speakers through that Q&A portal under the video player, or for those of you in the room, you can undertake to scan that QR code found in your program booklet.
Like you, I’m eager to hear from our distinguished guests, so I’ll try to be brief. A week ago, we hosted a fantastic event celebrating Black History Month, Black Excellence, by having four incredible Black women leaders sharing their inspirational stories. And from that event, the words of Claudette McGowan, the CEO of Protexxa, who was on the panel, still resonate with me. She said, “I don’t want to be a prisoner of the past; I want to be a pioneer of the future.” This is so powerful. And thank you, Claudette, for sharing this with us, this bit of inspiration.
And if you read the profiles of our speakers today, you know that they are all pioneers of the future. We often talk about breaking the mould, and pushing boundaries, and I’m confident our guests today are in the front seat of thriving against all odds. Mining, real estate, construction, are some of the most important sectors driving Canada’s growth and our prosperity. But there are also industries where, historically, it has been more difficult for women to break the Glass Ceiling. Today, we’re meeting the women who are rewriting the script in these traditionally male-dominated core sectors. More than once, our guests today were the only women in the senior management committees, or in the boardrooms that they found themselves in. There’s so much to learn from their stories, as we strive for positive change in our communities and our workplaces.
Mining, real estate, and construction are also industries that consistently struggle to attract diverse talent at all levels, particularly women. You know, as Canada faces a labour supply shortage, now more than ever, we need women leaders to be empowered to drive our country’s economic growth. We’re seeing positive changes, and that’s no accident. Arlene, Julie, Shantel, Dr. Rosati, your success is as tangible as are the challenges you’ve had to overcome to get to where you are. Today, we need your stories to be heard by more of us, and especially by the younger generation, of which we’re proud to be hosting today: students from Downsview Secondary School, Queen’s University, and Humber College. A round of applause.
To our panel, you’re paving the way for the next generation of women leaders. Thank you for sharing your stories, and thank you for showing the young female leaders that we have with us today that success is not only possible, but it’s also replicable. It is now my pleasure to invite to the stage today’s moderator, and the esteemed panellists to take over and start our discussion. Welcome.
Dr. Deborah Rosati, Founder & CEO, Women Get On Board
If I put these on, I won’t be able to see you; I can just see my material, so maybe that’s a better thing. Anyway, thank you, Sal, for that wonderful introduction. I don’t know about you, but I am just smiling ear-to-ear. What a turnout! Thank you, Empire Club; thank you, sponsors. What a panel. I am so excited to dig into their stories. They’ve really—I love that quote from Claudette—they’ve really been, they are pioneers of the future. And I think the stories will really resonate today. And so, we’re going to have about a 25-minute conversation. And really, through the conversations, these amazing panellists have all frontiered in industries that really have been male-dominated, predominantly real estate, mining, construction, as others are nodding their head—and I come from the technology sector, and I’ll put that sector in there as well. So, sort of to set the stage, we collectively agreed that we would talk about, in order to speak to our individual experiences, we talk about the industries that we came from, to sort of set the stage, so we can talk about the opportunities and challenges. And then, we’re going to end with how we celebrate ourselves, and celebrate others. Because that’s all about International Women’s Day, which is this theme for this year, is “Inspiring Inclusion.”
And so, let’s begin our conversations. I’m going to just put it in context. So, 2020 data—so, in 2023, Osler’s does An Annual Board Diversity Disclosure Report. And I’ve been using this as my base since 2015, when they first started reporting, when the Ontario Securities Commission came out with their Comply and Explain regime to public companies—so, either comply, i.e., have more women on your board, have more diversity on your board, or explain. And so, when Osler started doing this report in 2015, when you took the collective TSX-listed companies—which is, you know, 700-plus—it was only 12 percent. And then last year, when they released the report, it was just under 30 percent. And I will tell you, in that 30 percent number, there are industries like utilities, pipeline, telecommunications, media, and financial services, that are over 30 percent. And then, there’s industries like life sciences, mining, technology—real estate’s about in the midpoint—that are just approaching 20 percent. Now, that is for board members. But likewise, those of the industries that are trending for executive positions, executive officer positions for women.
And so, when we think about it, you know, Apple, the largest tech company, just announced in February that they got to, that they are at gender equity. So, when I look at that large tech company, and they can do that on a global basis, there’s no reason why in Canada—doesn’t matter the industry—that we can’t be promoting and championing to get more women on boards, and to get more women into executive leadership positions.
So, setting the stage, we have some amazing panellists that are going to share their stories, and I’m going to turn it over to Arlene, because I know you have some great data. You’re passionate about your industry. You come from a phenomenal professional background, and probably it wasn’t a path that was well-travelled.
Arlene Dedier, Principal, EVP, Canadian Practice Leader, Project Management Services, Avison Young
Well, thank you. I just have to say, it’s an honour to be here. If you had told me 30 years ago that I’d be sitting on the stage of the Empire Club, I’d say you’re crazy. And so, just to set the stage, if we know Canada is 51 percent female, male-dominated professions are those that are 25 percent or less. So, for construction, there could be a debate—it’s either 12.1 percent or 14 percent, depending on StatsCan, or the National Association for Women in Construction. I typically use 12.1 percent. Of the 12.1 percent women that are in construction, 7.1 percent are white, 1.7 percent are Asian, .7 percent are Latinx, and less than half of per are Black—I’m a miracle, you’re welcome. And our First Nations brothers and sisters are too few to be counted. That’s a problem. It’s a problem, and the stats haven’t changed. I’ve been doing this talk for a long time, and it hasn’t changed over the decades. So, the other thing that I want to point out is that of the 200,000 women that are in construction, only 27 percent work on site; that’s one in four. And so, you would think about that: there’s 1.1 million people in construction, 5 percent are female. We’re talking about inclusion, and we’ll talk about a path of how we’re going to do that.
I also happened to practice architecture in my past—not currently—but of the architects in Canada, 25 percent are female. And of the 25 percent that are female, again, less than a percentage are Black. So, as we have this conversation today, I want to talk about looking at male-dominated professions, but also, looking at the intersectionality of people, whether it’s ethnicity, race, visible or invisible, everybody has their own stories—I like to say her story. And with us being in what I like to call our “prime-hood,” we have some stories to share with you. So, that just sets a context for construction.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Well, thank you, Arlene. You see, she came very prepared. Julie, hopefully you can keep up with that.
Julie Di Lorenzo, President, Mirabella Development Corporation
Not with this—can I have those? So, I am going to tell you a different, more practical version of what happened. I started in 1982. And this room is incredibly refreshing, because that’s not what any room looked like in 1982. And when I was President of the Home Builders, I think my fantastic team at Build, filled with women from Build, came here today. You wouldn’t see, you wouldn’t see a lot of women at the boardroom table either. You certainly wouldn’t see a lot of female-owned development companies. How do you do it? You’re going to hear this over and over again from people, so I don’t want to be repetitive. You literally have to know more than anybody else at the table, and you literally have to know who your competition is. And so, every time you’d be there, if there was a gap or a scope gap, you’d say, “I can do that. I can do that.” And that’s how you slowly penetrated something that was quite impermeable.
But you also have to take steps to make change, and to forge your path. There was, once upon a time, a story—and it’s, it’s a true story—where I walked by a room where someone says, “She can’t do this job; she’s pregnant.” And I thought, “Did he just say that?” And so, what I needed to do though is very quickly understand that I could not function in that environment. Not that I had to leave, but that he had to leave. And so, you do also have to make structural change to ensure, because you can’t win that battle. If you’ve got people that don’t believe in you around you, you cannot, you’re going to be too exhausted. You need to find a way to constantly pave the road for yourself, and also to be ready and be more informed. Is it different now? To be honest with you, no. There’re not a lot more people who are developers. And I’m surprised every summer when we take recruits that I still have a ratio of one, two women, out of seven or eight students that come. Maybe we could do a better job at attracting people to our profession.
Let me explain to you how important our profession is, besides the practical that everyone lives or works in a physical structure. Canada’s got the highest ratio GDP relating to housing, eight percent. If housing’s not doing well, our economy has a very, very hard time. Most GDP countries of the OECD are about three to four percent. Now, why you would say that could be of concern, as to why so much of our economy is housing, but we know that we’re, we’ve got the capacity to bring in immigration. We’re going to continue to bring in immigration. So, we’ll be one of the only countries in the world that has the ability to grow, to sustain the immigration levels, because of our topography, and because of our resources. And housing and real estate and construction will be one of the most important things; more important—don’t get mad, automobile—than automobile. And also, changing the perspective of political politicians. I will literally go up to Minister Champagne and say, “Enough of automobile. You’ve been neglecting our industry for so long. It’s time that our got attention.” And you’re saying, “Well, that’s not a woman’s position.” But yes, he sees my face as a woman leading the industry, advocating, and that’s how we make change, in terms of having a greater presence of women in our business.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Yeah, and maybe just to follow on to that, you know, when they say when it comes to consumers making purchasing decisions, housing being one of them, real estate being one of them, isn’t one of the prime decision makers women?
Julie Di Lorenzo
Right. It’s actually quite incredible that, for the most part, the decision-makers who were delivering the product didn’t have that connection with the client themselves. So, it’s really long overdue. We’ve got to make inroads. And I would tell you that if you’re going to choose a career path—for the young, young people that are here—our industry is phenomenal. It’s, I always say psychology, architecture, engineering, law, marketing. There isn’t a scope. It’s the real Renaissance profession. You don’t have to be in construction and think that you’re going to be just the—not “just” the person driving the truck. You could also be the person driving the truck and designing something. You could be the person that is looking through the legal documents, and becoming an expert in that area. The breadth of capacity that our industry holds for people and for women is extraordinary.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you, Julie. We’re going to turn to mining, and I’m sure you’ve got your perspective, with your long-tenured experience and where you are today, Chantal. So, maybe you can sort of set the stage for the mining industry, and where it is today, and where maybe you’d like to see it going.
Chantal Gosselin, Corporate Director, Various TSX-listed Mining Companies
Well, mining and oiling gas, which is the extractive industry, is the third-largest contributor to Canadian GDP. So, it’s a very important sector. Now, again, with, like my colleagues, mining is underrepresented for women. We are barely 15 to 20 percent of the workforce. Now, mining, like when you’re talking about the workforce, the bulk of it is located at the mine sites. So, and mines are not in big centres, like here. They’re either in remote location near a small community, or in a place where you have to stay on camps at the site—for seven days, for example, on-site, and seven days at home. So, you can see how particularly challenging it can be for a woman that wants to have boots-on-the-ground experience at the site on the technical side, when they’re considering to have a family.
So, with that, I mean, there’s a number of avenues and opportunities that we can think of to help entice women to come and study in the mining sector. And one of them is agnostic of the sector, but one of them is having more services to help raising families. The second one is about having flexible schedule. When I’m thinking of COVID, and all the negative impact it had on the society, on the flip side, it helped, I guess, management to be more acceptive of having flexible schedules. And the pendulum went one way, and I’m just hoping that it won’t go back to pre-COVID, where, you know, there is no flexibility. So, I think that will be very helpful to make sure. And I do try to make that point at the board level.
And lastly, it’s more related to mining itself, the new technologies where they are developed to try to get the employee to not necessarily be on-site at the mine sites, but rather being remotely operating, whether it’s equipment, or doing their tasks outside of the mine site itself. So, there’s a lot to be done, but I think that’s how we can approach it from the mining side.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
So, hearing sort of each one of your perspectives, and we’re going to drill down—sorry, drill—drill down a little deeper on the challenges and how you can overcome them. And, and I think you did a great job, Arlene, of talking about diversity lens, right? But there’s a commonality, and I think it goes back to, is that you can be defined by the past as it was, or you can be a pioneer of the future. And I think having women leaders that are frontiering, that are on the front line, front-line as making decisions, we can make a change for this next generation of women leaders. So, I’m going to turn it to you, Arlene, and would love to get what you’ve had to do to overcome some of the challenges in your 12.1 percent industry, of women in the industry, and how you look at it from a diversity lens.
Arlene Dedier
So, I would say that we know that there’s systemic barriers, and we know that there’s challenges that we face internally, when you’re just defined by what somebody sees. So, news flash: I know I’m a Black woman. I’m not surprised at what I’ve achieved. You might be; that’s not my issue. And so, that’s the first thing. That box that frames you is, the other piece is for the formwork that puts that box or creates that—I don’t call it a Glass Ceiling, I call it a Concrete Ceiling—it’s not only the external things that’s piling on to do that formwork and pouring in that concrete, it’s also the baggage that we’re carrying, as well. If we start to believe the things that people are saying, or defining in terms of our capabilities.
How do we change that? I call it, like, angel investors, champions, sponsors. The one thing that I know is the biggest changes and pivots that have happened in my career have been coming from external pieces, where I started to believe the story that somebody was defining by me. And someone saw that there was an element of what I could bring to the table, and it pivoted. And here’s the thing: you might not have that person that pushes you or pivots you. But you have to listen. You have to open, be open to hear what’s being said. Because you don’t know what you don’t know. You’re not even sure what you’re really capable of. I mean, my aspirations at 20, and my aspirations in my primehood—I’m not going to say a number—are completely different. I feel like now, I’m just getting started, right? It’s just the tip of the iceberg. And that’s removing from places where you walk in the room, and somebody—we were just talking about this at the table—and nobody thought I was the architect. They were asking me to make them coffee, right? Nobody thinks that I’m running the 200-million-dollar construction project. They think I’m the assistant to my assistant, right? We’re used to that. That’s not the issue.
The issue is, when you start to buy into the story, the outside story, in order to break that—picture, a concrete ceiling. You know, how you break through a hole, you pour, you drill holes through the corner. Those people that are helping you and guiding you, they’re building those holes. So, when you smash the centre, that’s how it starts to crumble. Only when you’re open to hearing that, “You know, Arlene, I see that you could possibly do this,” the first time someone said that to me, I laughed. And he said, “Don’t do that when you walk into the room.” And I was like, “Okay, I get it.” I needed somebody to say that, to reflect, so that I could see my reflection through their eyes, rather than just the definition. Because every time I thought I’d made it to the top, something else happened, and it propelled me further. So, don’t be defined by your limiting beliefs. Be open and receptive, and challenge with empathy, not only the people around you—don’t walk in with your own bias or buy into theirs, but be open to receive it.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
I love it. There’s a term that I’m going to put out there, and you’ve touched on a few of the points: allies. You can break it down. It’s an acronym. A stands—so, everybody needs allies to lift them up, we had a speaker, Gabrielle Schuster (ph), Glen Keeling (ph) was on our panel—A stands for Advocate, L stands for Listen, the other L stands for Lift, the I stands for Inclusion, the E stands for Elevate, and the S stands for Sponsor. And those are the people, and that’s what you need in your community—I’m not an architect, so I can’t do concrete frameworks, but foundationally. And so, you know, you were talking about listening, and you were talking about inclusion. And so, I just wanted to kind of pause on that, as a reflection, as we continue our conversation. So, thank you, Arlene. And, you know, how compelling. And like you say, the empathy. I would have no idea what shoes you’ve stood in, without knowing your background. And boy, you’ve got some pretty high shoes to fill from anybody else. Over to you, Julie.
Julie Di Lorenzo
A little while ago, I heard Geena Davis speak on the Jane Project—and I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it. To simplify it, she was studying film and seeing that even in crowd scenes, there were more men in the crowd than women. At boardroom meetings, there were more men in the boardroom than women. And her concept and the philosophy of it was that the more you saw more men, you got used to seeing more men at the boardroom. So, what I had to learn is, I call it my “photobombing,” is that when you jump in front of a picture? So, all our lives, I’m sure, we’re more subtle than our peers. And it was really time to say, “Well, it’s not just for me,” because I find that I’m very low-key, “it’s for other people to know that that’s possible.” And that’s why you have to be photobombing. That’s why you have to be pushing that boardroom door open. I literally went to a meeting about five or six years ago, and I was three minutes late—a little bit more, I’m Italian, so a little more than three minutes late—five minutes late, and all the guys had sat themselves around the table. And when I walked in, they didn’t open up the table to let me sit down. So, my first instinct was, “I’ll just sit over here. What’s the difference? I’m still going to be functioning.” But I actually thought, no. Trigger. “Can you guys move?” And that makes a big difference. It’s not their fault. Go think of that Jane Project. If you’re taught in a movie that you’re not going to be at the table, you’re not programmed to expect someone to be at the table. So, that’s our role. Having had the experience, I promise to be more photobombing, so that you promise to follow and do it, and then lead in front of me. Pass me, pass me.
I’ll give you a cute little story. A young student of mine—I mean, a summer student, we take summer students—she was in front of me, and she was talking about her job this summer, and mentoring. Like, and, and also I learned just as much from, from the younger people. And her phone died. And so, I went and bought her a battery pack and sent it to her, and said, “Don’t ever tell your boss your phone died.” Is that really, like, it was just a little thing to show her, I’m there for you. These little nuances make a difference. Be present, be ready, and then the opportunity is there. So, so really think about that, being out there, being an advocate for each other.
I have another thing that I say—and I’m sorry to take more time—I used to say that we could help each other one by one. With the state of what’s out there, I think it’s like helping three people each. And so, we just have to expand that commitment to actually be there for each other, advice, mentoring, and leadership.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Wow. I, I hope this is getting recorded, because there are some great nuggets here. Chantal, so what, from your perspective, the—you’ve given some examples. But what else would you, you know, you’re in, sitting around boardroom tables these days, right? And you have this opportunity to really make sure voices are heard and making sure there’s a diverse lens in which you’re making decisions. So, any stories you want to share?
Chantal Gosselin
Well, I have many stories from the mining side of it, when I was working in mines. But without going through the details, a lot of those stories taught me that you need to be resilient, and very speak up when you see unfair situations. And it’s a little bit the same as at the boardroom, to speak up and be assertive, when you’re believing in something that is unfair, or speak up for other women that are not in the room. So, yeah, I think mostly, it’s about being resilient, and really, really speak up when, when there’s something that you feel is unfair.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
I’m going to throw in the power of three—anyone that’s interviewed me or followed me, I talk about it all the time—and this would, whether it’s in a boardroom, whether it’s in a mining site, whether it’s on a construction site, whether it’s in architectural firms, the power of three is: one woman is a beginning, two is a presence, and three is a voice. And we’ve all had to break through traditional barriers. I have one of my FCPA good friends here with me, and we came from a very traditional accounting firm background. And I was early on in my career, I was an articling student, I was probably in my second tax season, I was probably no more than 20, at best, and I had a senior male partner tell me I would never be a CA. That was pretty defining. But I had allies around me, and I never let someone define who I was going to be. And I don’t think anyone should. Because, you know, there’s a multitude of stories. But I want to share that, because that was a very male-dominated profession back in—I am in my prime-hood and beyond—40 plus years ago. But, you know, what? No one can define you. If you have the courage and the confidence, you just want to keep stepping up those ladders. And it might be a bit of a jungle gym, you know, or a lattice that you’re climbing, but keep climbing. Don’t let anyone push you down.
So, I think we’ve kind of talked about overcoming some challenges. What I really love to hear from all three of you—because I think as women, we don’t celebrate ourselves enough. We’re busy celebrating others. We don’t celebrate ourselves. And, you know, it really is part of your branding, it’s part of your story. And you know, when I founded Women Get on Board, I knew by founding it, it wasn’t for me. I had a higher purpose, and I definitely wanted to elevate that next generation of women corporate directors. So, I spend every day celebrating women, every moment, every time I get an opportunity. And I think we all can do that for each other. So, Arlene, how do you celebrate yourself first?
Arlene Dedier
Ha, I don’t even know where to start with that. It’s a challenging one. But I’ll tell you a story. I had my team do an intervention. They wanted to submit me for an award. And I said, “I haven’t done anything yet.” They sat down, and, and you know, they said, “These are all the reasons that we have to do it.” And I was like, “Fine, if you guys want to do it, I’ll review it. I’ll give you my input. But whatever. It’s good. Knock yourselves out.” So, all of these people did all of this work, and they submitted this package. I think it’s the proudest award that I’ve ever received, because it was around Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. And it’s Catalyst, it’s a Catalyst Business Leader Award for Canada. And the craziest thing was, we won. I didn’t win.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
[Applause] There. Take a moment.
Arlene Dedier
My team was so excited. They were crying. They were like—and it’s a weird thing, because you get to a certain age, and you feel like you have to do, you have to be the mentor, the champion. You don’t take the ladder up with you, you pass it back down. These are all things that you need to do. The weird thing was, they reminded me that they are my champions, right? That the mentoring isn’t one-directional, that I’m learning from them. I’m learning to accept myself, and take time to do it. So, from my incredible business partners and leaders—and got a whole table of Avison Young people here—to the folks from the Board Diversity Network that push me, too, I’m now board ready. Call me. And to my team for winning this, I realized, yeah, even now, I’m reminded that there’s still work to be done. But I can also say, sit back and look at some of the accomplishments, and to be open to receive those things. We could talk about the hard times, we could talk about, you know, sort of Hidden Figures bathroom scenes on construction sites. But we could also reflect on the positive steps that we’re making forward. So, yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you. Julie, I mean, impressive. And it is hard, it’s humbling when somebody wants to nominate you, and you look at and you go, “I’m not worthy of this, I shouldn’t.” They’re like, “No,” you know. And sometimes people actually have to wrestle you to the floor to do it. But what I would say, my takeaway, if somebody wants to nominate you, you go, “Hell yeah. Nominate me. What do you need?” And don’t ever reject it. Somebody is looking and saying you are worthy of this. So, don’t ever refuse that, don’t ever say no. So, over to you, Julie.
Julie Di Lorenzo
So, I am rewarded by the fact that I absolutely love what I do. And also, how I’ve explored rewarding myself is that you have the financial capacity, when you succeed, to do things you love. And so, a little story about, I was interviewed to borrow money once. And the person, very prominent person, and first question he asked me was, “Is your eye off the ball at work, because you do so much charity work?” I thought—and he was brilliant, so he did tons of charity work—and I said, “No.” Because I can’t make my presence going to Vegas with the boys, I can’t go to the bar to have drinks, because I got to be with my kids, probably doing their homework, and I can’t do some of the things that most of my peers do to get to know each other—not condemning it; just very, very different. So, how I got to do that was going to the table where charity was being done, so, serving on boards, donating my time to the hospitals, et cetera. And the answer to this gentleman who was interviewing to lend me money, I said, “Well, I’m on the board of St. Michael’s Hospital. And where could I possibly sit, once a month, with three bank chairmen?” So, so it really made a lot of sense but incredibly rewarding. And so, that’s how I celebrated. And I’ve been very lucky to have the freedom to be able to do those things.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you. And you know, what? I think part of that giving back to community, we were chatting about the board work and associations, and industries, that you can give back to, your profession is so, so rewarding. We were sitting at the table today and saying, you know, being part of this head table for Empire Club, the people that you meet that you wouldn’t meet otherwise. And so, those opportunities are there—and I, I loved how you framed it up, because that gives you the opportunity to, to celebrate you, but celebrate your community.
Julie Di Lorenzo
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you. Julie. Chantal, how do you celebrate yourself?
Chantal Gosselin
I think it’s a fabulous, wonderful thing to receive awards and recognition. Personally, where I feel the most rewarded is when I get a phone call from someone who’s going through a difficult patch in her career, or a difficult situation, and they’re asking my help to try to navigate through that impasse. And that’s when I draw on my past experience, and try to help them to navigate through that. So, I, I find a large self-fulfillment doing that. I do have a couple mentors, as well, and I think we, we talked about that, Arlene.
Arlene Dedier
Yeah.
Chantal Gosselin
One of them has been there since I started in the industry. And I find that very helpful, because you can bounce back ideas, and it helps you to see other perspectives. So, that’s the first, first one. Another way I celebrate myself is by investing in myself. And by that, I mean, we, we, we buy some nice houses, homes, cars, shoes, purses, clothes. So, I approach it the same way by investing in myself and my technical skills, or my soft skills, and also to expand my network—which is, I think, one of the most important things to do. So, seriously, when, when we’re thinking about, if an employer cannot help, is investing in ourselves and thinking that we can do it by ourselves. And it stays with us. You, you keep that with you, and it helps you grow through your career. And I think it’s a wonderful thing to do.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you. I don’t know if we have 10 minutes left—someone was going to cue me, I just wanted to make sure—do we, are we on to Q&A? Do I, I, I’ll, I’ll maybe grab one more question from each of the panellists, because I think they all have stories to share. But what I would, before we go to Q&A, because I do see there’s a couple questions, I want you to, if you had to look back on your younger self—I know this question gets asked a lot—if you had to look back on your younger self, what would you say to yourself? You know, 12-year-old Arlene. What would you say to yourself?
Arlene Dedier
So, I give three pieces of advice when I do these talks. Number one, dance with your fear. Don’t let it overwhelm you, don’t let it make you, immobilize you and freeze, dance with it, take it down to the ground. You’re going to hear a hundred no’s. So, if you’re worried about somebody saying no, let that go, send it out to the universe. You’re going to get a hundred no’s. But in there, there will be one yes. Okay? So dance with your fear. Just keep moving forward. Don’t let anything stop you; straight ahead.
Second, challenge with empathy. You don’t know the intersectionality or the history of the other person—man, woman, black, white, yellow, brown, invisible challenges, not, you don’t know that. So, as you’re being confronted, as they say the most inane things to you, and you want to go bananas, challenge with empathy, right? So that you can—and let them finish, and then respond. So, you can centre yourself, and then respond—because I think I’ve heard it all.
And the last one is, it’s our responsibility to give back and pay forward, right? I wouldn’t be here without, especially there’s a woman sitting there at the table that has elevated me to a position I could never have conceived—thank you, Sheila (ph). And, and she told me that seven years prior, and I didn’t listen. I didn’t listen. Be the champion, be the mentor, be the ally. There’s some conversations that that that woman, or that Black woman, or that other person can’t have. It’s not our responsibility to educate everyone on their lack of knowledge, or understanding, or lack of empathy. We need allies to be in the room for us.
So, I would say, if you want to make an impact, any one of those three things.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Wow, great advice. Julie, we’re going to move you to your 20-year-old self, not your 12-year-old self.
Julie Di Lorenzo
Okay. I would say that because, you know your nature. And because my nature is trying to always, always solve things, you’ve got to really appreciate that sometimes you can’t solve everything. And I found that I spent a lot of time fixing people and things, sometimes, that couldn’t be, couldn’t work. And so, you have to learn to move on. You have to learn to say, I need to find people who believe in me, I need to find people who in my weakest moments are encouraging, and not people that bring your energy down or take away from you. You just have to be able to move on. So, it’s not about being weak, it’s just about saying, it’s not for me, I’ve got to, I’ve got to move on.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Great. So, sort of setting some boundaries for yourself.
Julie Di Lorenzo
Exactly, right. Yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Chantal, your younger self. What would you tell your younger self today?
Chantal Gosselin
I would say that take those jobs that are not popular, the jobs that are really hard, that don’t seem very interesting, but that will make you go through some hardship, which will make you grow, and also experience different things. I would—yeah, I think that’s pretty, what I would say, on top of what you, you mentioned. But I think it’s very important to not be too selective on what you’re going to do. So, that will bring you somewhere where you can use that experience, and leverage it for the future.
QUESTION & ANSWER
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Thank you. I know we can continue, I’d love to just chat with them all day—if you bring me a bottle of wine, I’m sure that’ll continue—but I’m told to stay hydrated today, so I will drink water, then. We have time, we have about 10 minutes for Q&A. And I’m sure we have audience on virtually, and also here in the room. So, I’ve got a couple that have come in, and then I will take these, and then within the room, if anyone has questions, please put your hand up. We’ve only got 10 minutes, and I’m sure the panellists will stay around for some conversation after, when we wrap up. So, I’m going to start with the first question that came in: “As a woman, and a senior leader, I really struggle being called a female leader. I’m a leader, full stop. How does the panel feel as it relates to labelling, i.e., a female leader?” Anyone want to respond to that one?
Arlene Dedier
I think when I said, “I know that I’m a Black woman, like, you don’t have to point it out to me—oh my God! You’re Black, and a woman.” Really. I get it. I would just dismiss it. I think that it’s other people’s stuff that they need to sort out, and that’s okay—I’m not judging it, that’s okay if they’re surprised, or trying to do whatever it is that they’re doing or figure out. I wouldn’t make it your issue. If they want to call you whatever you want to call you, as long as it’s not derogatory, you know, know your pronouns, that’s, I’m okay with it.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Yeah. Yeah.
Arlene Dedier
So, I wouldn’t get distracted by that. People want to put things in labels and boxes. I, I think it’s just a…
Julie Di Lorenzo
I agree.
Arlene Dedier
…yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Oh. Moderator panel. Anyone else want to weigh in on that one?
Chantal Gosselin
No, I think that’s right. I mean, you shouldn’t be like making a difference between men and women in the mining industry, you’re just…
Dr. Deborah Rosati
You’re a leader.
Chantal Gosselin
…yeah, you just, it’s people, we’re people. And we’re all in this together to make it work. So, yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
I mean, I have one little story I want to share, because it was pretty impactful, but I didn’t go in thinking that. It was 2015—I know other people have heard this—I was being interviewed for a board opportunity, and the CEO was the first interview I had. And he said to me, “You know, I’m not interviewing you because you’re a woman.” I looked at him and I said, “Well, you know, I’m here because I can add value to your board. So, let’s talk about your strategy.” So, I wasn’t going to let that define me, and I was not going to let that get in my way of having a good conversation.
Arlene Dedier
Yeah.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
And so, I never thought about it, I didn’t think, hey, I’m a woman, I have to be treated—and I’m sure we all have stories of that. So, hopefully that answered that question for that. Wow, we’ve got quite a few questions coming in. Question: “What do you hope your legacy will be?” And I’m going to get each one of you to answer it. And it has to be a quick, off the top of your head. Arlene, your legacy?
Arlene Dedier
Gosh. I don’t know that I, that I built something that’s, that makes a difference. I think being in a weird industry that’s really rare. I would love that moment—everybody knows that I’ve got my sort of like special projects that I want to do. I want my parents, who don’t really fully get what I do for a living, to walk by and go, “My daughter did that.”
Dr. Deborah Rosati
That’s awesome. What’s your legacy, Julie?
Julie Di Lorenzo
I’d love teaching younger people in this industry to carry on, and not have to learn the same things, but to progress and go beyond. And so, that would be my legacy, is teaching as many people who want to know, helping as many people who want to know, to make this industry better and better.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
That’s wonderful. And Chantal?
Chantal Gosselin
Similarly, if I can help one, two, three people, or women, or men, in progressing in this industry, that will be my legacy that I would like to live.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Wonderful. I took these from the poll, from, I think they were virtual questions. I’d love to hear—and there’s a multi, trust me, there’s a whole, we could be all afternoon, here. But I’d love to hear anyone in the room if they want to put their hand up, walk up closer. Oh, there’s, oh my goodness. Okay. Can you stand up? I don’t know if there’s a mic there for you or there’s a—I can give you my mic…
Unidentified Speaker from Audience
[indiscernible]
Dr. Deborah Rosati
…okay, please do.
Unidentified Speaker from Audience
[indiscernible]
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Wonderful question, thank you. I probably, it would have gotten to me later, so I wanted to— love hearing it in person. So, what would be the one—let’s start with you, Chantal. What would be the one thing?
Chantal Gosselin
Yeah, when I look back at my career, most opportunities were the direct result of having someone that I knew that recommended me to this job, and whatnot. So, when I think about that, and I, you know, how important it is to expand your network, and with that in mind, I do keep a list of people that I know, that I’ve met throughout the years, that could be potentially a management position, or a board position. So, if I’ve been asked, I always have this list of active people that I can recommend, so.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Love that, love that. And then, Julie?
Julie Di Lorenzo
I say, be excellent. Be excellent at whatever you do, be the best at what you do, just know the information inside out, and be excellent.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
And I just got cued that all questions are in here, so, thank you. I have one more question I’m going to take that came in. And we’re going to end on this question. Any thoughts on current trends in Corporate America—how about corporate Canada? Any thoughts on current trends in corporate North America, maybe—of DEI initiatives now being reversed or backtracked?
Arlene Dedier
Any trend….
Dr. Deborah Rosati
That are being reversed or backtracked, in corporate?
Arlene Dedier
Yeah, I think we’re at a pivotal time—I’m going to try to stay in my lane. I think what’s happening south of the border is frightening. I think that the fact that it is happening, and we’ve seen what’s happened at Harvard, and these other situations, where trying to change the dynamic of the conversation is for, is coming from someone that has no—a complete lack of understanding or, of what this position is like, and what it’s being. In Canada, we like to think that we’re better. And, you know, I lived in the States for 15 years. I think that we have a duty to speak up. That one thing was to be an advocate. Don’t sit in a room where the guy just repeated what the other woman just said like it was news. Don’t remain silent when someone is being basically eliminated, and wiped out of existence, because someone is positioning or advocating something that you fundamentally think is wrong.
When you—in order to lead, you have to set the example, right? If my team does something wrong, I take full responsibility. If somebody is saying something and doing something that you know, fundamentally, is not the right thing to do, then your one thing that you can do is speak up. To remain silent—and this was the biggest thing with George Floyd, right? Like the silence was killing Black people everywhere, right? Because for us, it was a Monday. It was just enough of a Monday, right? Like when is enough enough? How many women have to step up and advocate for themselves? How many People of Colour? So, I get emotional about what’s happening there, and that they think that enough has been done. We have not started to equivocate the systemic issues that have pervaded through the history of the world, right? We’re just starting to level-set. And so, there will be those that will stand up, and those that will sit down. And where you stand on this side of history—and I think it’s amazing that, you know, as we look at Brian Mulroney’s passing, the biggest impact that changed my life was the fact that he played a big role in ending Apartheid, right? At some point, you want to know which side of history you are going to stand on.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
Wow, I think that question was perfectly crafted for you. I don’t know, Julie or Chantal, if you want to weigh in on any of that.
Julie Di Lorenzo
Anything to say would be inadequate.
Dr. Deborah Rosati
I think, always leave, go out with a bang. So, I want to take this moment and thank Julie, Arlene, and Chantal for sharing their stories. And also, I want to thank you all for making the time. This was an investment in you, a celebration of you, and a celebration of community. So, thank you for coming out today.
Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
In mining, real estate, construction, pivotal sectors for Canada’s growth, we’ve heard stories of resilience, determination, and triumph. These remarkable women, Arlene Dedier, Julie Di Lorenzo, and Chantal Gosselin, have not just broken barriers, but have paved the way for a more inclusive and diverse future. I’d like to extend, also, my gratitude to our esteemed panellists for sharing their invaluable insights and your experiences. Dr. Deborah Rosati, your moderation has been exemplary, and thank you for guiding us through this enriching discussion. That’s up to all our attendees, thank you for joining us on this journey of celebration and reflection. Let’s carry forward the spirit of today’s discussion, championing equality and opportunity for all.
As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on demand on our website. The recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an email with the link.
On Thursday, March 21st, join us in person or virtually for a conversation with the Honourable Peter Bethlenfalvy, Minister of Finance in Ontario, in anticipation of the 2024 Provincial Budget. On Wednesday, March 28th, join us for our “Empire Nights” Event. As we near the halfway point of Premier Doug Ford’s second mandate. It’s time to take a stock on his achievements and challenges, and what it all means for the spring sitting of the Ontario legislature.
Thank you all for joining us today, and let’s keep striving for progress together. This meeting is now adjourned.
