October 23, 2025
The Empire Club of Canada Presents
Empire Nights: A Stronger Canada – The Honourable Wab Kinew, Premier of Manitoba
Chairman: Sheamus Murphy, 3rd Vice-Chair, Empire Club of Canada; Managing Partner, Council Public Affairs, Inc.
Moderator
David Hurley, Co-Founder, AirQuotes Media; Partner, Rubicon Strategy; Podcast Host
Distinguished Guest Speakers
The Honourable Wab Kinew, Premier of Manitoba
Head Table Guests
Michael Fox, Board Chair, Empire Club of Canada; President, Indigenous and Community Engagement (ICE) Inc.
Izzie Abrams, Vice President, Government & External Affairs, Waste Connections of Canada
Emily Olson, Chief Sustainability & Corporate Affairs Officer, Vale Base Metals
Welcome Address by Sheamus Murphy, 3rd Vice-Chair, Empire Club of Canada; Managing Partner, Council Public Affairs, Inc.
Good evening, everyone. I’m Sheamus Murphy, a director at the Empire Club, a member of the Executive Committee, and managing partner at Council Public Affairs. And I’m your host for this evening’s event here at the Westin Harbour Castle.
Before we begin, we’d like to start this evening by acknowledging the land on which we gather. And to lead us in that acknowledgement, I’m pleased to welcome Michael Fox, a new member of the Empire Club’s Board of Directors, and a major sponsor of tonight’s event through his company, Indigenous and Community Engagement. Michael is a respected business and community leader who works to strengthen relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous partners across Canada. Please join me in welcoming Michael Fox, to deliver our land acknowledgement.
Michael Fox, Board Chair, Empire Club of Canada; President, Indigenous and Community Engagement (ICE) Inc.
Thank you. I’m just going to speak from the heart. The land acknowledgement is too long. I think I just want to say, acknowledge the homelands of our Indigenous brothers and sisters, and the signatories of Treaty 13, here in the Greater Toronto Area. And every day I come here, I travel back and forth Thunder Bay and Toronto, I always enjoy—I know many of us do—the many bounties and beauty and blessings it has to offer. And I think one of those blessings today is having the Manitoba Premier coming here, and I just wanted to say on behalf, I can’t speak on everybody, the Indigenous folks here, but there are many. I got to say to you that I zigzag across this country, they are proud of you. And they’re not only just proud of you, but they are guided by you. And I would say, some would even ride with you in your mission. And yeah. Miigwech.
Sheamus Murphy
Thank you, Michael. Tonight’s event would not be possible without the generous support of our sponsors. The Empire Club is a non-profit organization and our sponsors generously support the club to make these events possible. Please join me in thanking our Lead Sponsors, Waste Connections of Canada and Vale Base Metals. Thank you to our Major Sponsors, Council Public Affairs, and Indigenous and Community Engagement Inc. And to our Supporting Sponsors, Bell Canada, FGS Longview and Think Research. We also deeply appreciate the ongoing support of our Lead Season Sponsors, Bruce Power, Hydro One, and National Bank Financial Markets. And our VIP Reception Season Sponsors, Ellis Don, McKinsey & Company, the Ontario Road Builders Association, and Waste Connections of Canada. And finally, thank you to our Media Partner, the Toronto Star, and our AV Partner, Bespoke AV.
You may have noticed a poll at the bottom of your program. We would love to hear your thoughts. Scan the QR code to submit your answer. Answers will be shown on the screen following the program. And kindly note that this evening’s event is being recorded for the Hurly-Burly podcast and will be shared with a wider audience afterward. We appreciate your participation as we capture these important conversations.
Now that we’ve got the formalities covered, I can tell you that I’m glad to be here, and excited to host tonight’s event, temporarily taking the podium over from our club’s Chair, Saurabh Popat. As you know, at the Empire Club, our goal is to create a space for open, informed conversations about the issues that shape our country, and this evening is one of those moments. Canada is facing real questions about the balance between individual rights, collective responsibility, and the role of government in protecting them both. The discussion about Charter rights and the notwithstanding clause is at the centre of that debate, and it’s the kind of national conversation that belongs here among leaders, thinkers, and engaged citizens.
We’re fortunate to be joined by the Honourable Wab Kinew, Premier of Manitoba, a leader who’s built his approach on reconciliation, economic resilience, and the belief that Canada is stronger when we work together. It’s safe to say that Premier Kinew is a giant on the Canadian political stage. Later, he’ll be joined by David Hurley for a discussion about how we protect our democracy and move forward as a country.
Before we begin, I’d like to recognize our Lead Sponsor, Waste Connections of Canada, whose support helps make tonight’s event possible. Please welcome Izzie Abrams, Vice-President of Government and External Affairs at Waste Connections of Canada. Izzie has spent more than 50 years in the waste and recycling industry, leading growth strategies, building partnerships, and contributing to community and environmental initiatives across Canada. Izzie, thank you for your partnership, and for your support of tonight’s program. The floor is yours.
Opening Remarks by Izzie Abrams, Vice-President, Government & External Affairs, Waste Connections of Canada
Well, thank you, Sheamus. I didn’t need that introduction. And it’s going to be pretty hard to introduce the Premier after all the kind words have been said. But I will, because you’ve prepared these remarks for me, so—you’re supposed to turn the page for me [Laughter]. Anyway.
So, it’s now my pleasure to introduce our keynote speaker this evening, the Honourable Wab Kinew. The Premier was first elected as an MLA at Fort Rouge in 2016; in the following years, the party leader. He holds degrees in economics and Indigenous governance. Before entering politics, Premier Kinew built a wide-ranging career as a broadcaster, educator, and advocate. At the University of Winnipeg, he served as the first Director of Indigenous Inclusion, helping create opportunities for students in the inner city and beyond. He is also an honourary witness of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and the author of The Reason You Walk, a memoir that reflects deeply on family culture, power, and second chances. He brings steadiness, empathy, and a clear voice to the national conversation about what kind of country we want Canada to be. On a personal note, I can tell you, having worked with the Premier, he is a man of high integrity. And now, join me in welcoming the Premier.
The Honourable Wab Kinew, Premier of Manitoba
Well, thank you so much, Izzie. We’ve done some important work together, Izzie and I, and the people we work with, and I’m gonna reflect a bit on that. But I’d say Izzie’s also a person of high integrity, and he’s a tough negotiator. It’s a compliment.
So tonight, I want to talk to you about human rights. And in particular, coming from where I’m from, right? I’m from a place called the Ojibways of Onigaming First Nation in northwestern Ontario. It’s about three hours southeast of Winnipeg. And my dad, as an Anishinaabe person, when he was a young man in this country, wasn’t allowed to vote. So that’s my background. Over the course of his life, you know, my dad did gain the franchise. He gained equality of opportunity in this country. And he was helped along the way by people like Stephen Lewis, who was a giant, politically, in his province. He’s been a great mentor to me. Alan Borovoy, of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, who was right there, shoulder to shoulder, with my Uncle Fred, organizing the Silent March in Kenora, that was one of the starts of the Canadian Civil Rights movement. And people like that.
So, in our family, human rights, it’s not theory. It’s real. Human rights are what allowed us to leave the Reserve, to join the mainstream, and to earn these wonderful lives that we have today. And so, for me, when I think about this country, when I think about the things that the Empire Club engages in, I’m a true believer. I have bought in to the rights and freedoms that we cherish in this country, and I want to acknowledge that some Indigenous people grapple with what it means to call themselves Canadian. But for me, it’s pretty straightforward. I love this country, I’m a patriot, and I’m a staunch advocate for our rights and freedoms, which I say are best articulated in our Charter.
Now, recently, some of my colleagues, as Premiers, have started to push on those rights articulated in the Charter through the use of the notwithstanding clause. And so, tonight, I am here to push back. I’m offering up a moderate perspective. I’m offering up, of course, also the perspective of somebody who has seen firsthand the difference that these rights and freedoms make in the lives of people that I grew up with. But importantly, I think that I’m also offering a perspective that would be embraced by the Canadian mainstream, the average Canadian person out there. Because I think if you ask the average Canadian out there, should a parliament or a legislature be allowed to suspend human rights, I think the average Canadian would say no. And yet, that’s effectively what Section 33 allows.
So I’ll pause here for a second, to point out that my colleagues who’ve used the notwithstanding clause would prefer this conversation not to be at the level that I just defined it. They don’t want the conversation to be about human rights. They would prefer the conversation to be about trans kids, to be about religious symbols, and to be about an assertion that there are Muslim people praying in the streets. And they want the argument to be on that level because they probably think that they can win, politically, on that level. They probably can’t win campaigning against human rights, though, in this country.
And so, one of the first points that I want to make is that moderates across Canada should drag this conversation back to the dialogue about human rights at all times. If we talk about the use of Section 33 as suspending human rights, I think that’s a winning argument. And it’ll allow Canadians to see what these actions typically are, which is simply picking on vulnerable minorities.
It makes life easier, too, when the thing that you say about my dad being able to leave the Reserve is the same thing that you say about the trans kid who’s being bullied, and is the same thing you say about the Hutterite colony being able to maintain its identity. And it’s simple. I support their rights and freedoms because they protect you, and because they protect me as well.
[Remarks in French]
“And there’s, there’s a little something else at play in this debate. Some people would say it’s huge, it’s huge, it’s big, it’s beautiful—I wouldn’t say that, but some people, they would say that.” I think lurking in the background of the conversation of Section 33 is, you know, it’s tariffs. Right? And the connection that I see is this. I’m sure in a few moments we’re going to talk about EVs, and canola ,and tariffs, and all that stuff. But before we get there, I’ll just confess, you know, I tended to be very hawkish when it came to China. But that hawkishness was predicated on the assumption that our neighbour to the south would be the defender of the international rules-based order. And they have vacated that space. At the same time, I see America abandoning its leadership role in human rights globally in favour of a doctrine that’s, effectively, might makes right.
And so, this whole conversation we’re having in Canada this year, standing up for our economy, building mega projects, putting people to work, these are things that we can rally around. And I can tell you that based on the experience that I’ve had this year, there is no constituency in Canada for abandoning our Canadian values. People want us to be stronger than ever. We won the Four Nations Cup. Now how about the World Series?
But on the substantive issue that I’m speaking about tonight, it also means defending our Charter rights, defending human rights, defending the pluralism and multicultural intolerance that define Canadians. And that’s why I’m here making this argument tonight. You know, the question for us, as Canadians, with these peacekeeping blue berets, and the maple leaf sewn to our backpacks when we travel the world, is what role do we want to play in the leadership vacuum, that wake of the leadership vacuum created by the actions of the Trump administration.
And so for me, I think working out that balance means answering how are we to handle with these two competing ideas that the Charter gives us: that we have inalienable rights and freedoms, and yet, at the same time, a parliament or a legislature can suspend those rights and freedoms. And, you know, put a finer point on it, if those two things are mutually exclusive, which side are we going to land on? The answer, as best as I can come up with, is this. We should put it in your hands. You, the voter, the people of Canada.
And so what we’ve done, as the province of Manitoba, is that we’ve intervened at the Supreme Court against Québec’s Bill 21, and we’ve said in our filing that even though the Court, because of section 33, cannot strike down a law, they should still be able to rule on whether it’s trampling on people’s rights, even if the law will stand. Why? Because then you, the voter, at the next election, will have that knowledge, when you are asked whether or not to give that government another term. And so we formalized this idea a little bit more, and brought in our own Bill 50 in Manitoba, which we’ve said we’re never going to use the notwithstanding clause in our province. But beyond that, this Bill 50 will say that any future government in Manitoba that’s going to use section 33 will immediately have to refer it to the courts, so that a judge can rule on whether that law would otherwise violate people’s rights, were it not for the use of section 33. And the fundamental idea is, again, more information for you, the voter, more engaged citizens, a stronger democracy, and the fundamental insight on, as an expert in our rights and freedoms, namely a judge, say that this government action would otherwise have violated people’s basic human rights.
So fundamentally, when it comes to something like the use of the Charter section 33, our view is that we should have the debate. As I said, people want to have the debate down here, let’s have it up here. Let’s have it on the issues of rights, and respecting people’s liberties. And let’s drag it away from being a conversation about the wedge political issues of the day. I suspect in those terms, like I said, most Canadians are going to say, no, we want you to respect people’s rights.
Of course, a counterpoint to all this, you’re probably wondering, well, why not just do away with section 33 entirely? And that’s not the position that we’re advocating for either. I’d say our approach leaves for some hypothetical future scenario. Again, imagine this alternate universe here, just hypothetically, imagine a world in which a political movement creates out of nothing an entirely new academic doctrine, and then spends years training, and funding, and nominating candidates who appoint people to the bench who follow that academic doctrine, and that they continue naming until the Supreme Court is stacked with people following this train of thought, and they use that stacking of their Supreme Court to, let’s say, strike down a woman’s right to choose, or employment equity, or hypothetically, marriage equality. In a situation like that, it might be good to have a notwithstanding clause for a parliament or a legislature to be able to protect, actually protect, a vulnerable minority from the overreach of a hypothetical activist judiciary. So that’s why I think perhaps a bit of nuance on Section 33 is necessary. Because we may one day in this country see Section 33 being used for good. We haven’t necessarily seen that yet.
So it’s interesting to be up here, and again, the crux of my argument is the best way to protect the vulnerable minority is to put it back in the hands of the majority. That’s effectively what I’m arguing. And here’s why. My dad, who I opened the speech about, was a residential school survivor. And one of the things that he used to say is he used to tell me, you know, we never would have got the apology if non-Indigenous people weren’t upset by residential schools. And there’s something bigger than just an Indigenous political issue that he was commenting on there. It has more to do with building a political consensus in this country. We saw that wisdom play out in our last election. In that campaign—and why I say that I worked with Izzie—the Conservative government of the day, the Manitoba PC government, decided against searching a landfill that Waste Connections owns, and they became bystanders, basically, in this political debate, for the remains of Indigenous women who were murdered by a serial killer who’s now been convicted.
Now in that campaign, the PC’s—the Manitoba PC’s, I should be clear to say—ran millions of dollars worth of political ads celebrating their decision. The ads said things like, “Stand firm against the unsafe landfill dig.” These ads were callous, they were ugly, and I’ve often asked if they ever would have existed at all, if it weren’t for the fact that I, as their political opponent, am Anishinaabe. Now, for much of our campaign, these ads worked. We were campaigning on healthcare and the cost of living, and we’d show up on people’s doorsteps and be like, “Healthcare, cost of living!” and we’d get an earful about the landfill search. But we persevered, and eventually, our opponents got desperate, and they put up these huge billboards that everybody had to drive home by in Winnipeg on their way home from work to the suburbs, again, effectively attacking the victims of a serial killer. You can imagine how that landed in friendly Manitoba.
Most people, at the time, probably agreed with the Manitoba PC’s on the policy question of not searching the landfill. And we saw that in polling. But this is why I say we owe it to Canadians to have the debate, because even though Manitobans were there at the time, they were willing to entertain the counterargument, and eventually, they changed their minds. And on Election Day 2023, they cast their ballots, and they said, “You know what? We don’t like that mean-spirited attack-ad approach. We are one province, we are one Manitoba, and by the way, we’re a place that if somebody goes missing, we go looking.” And we always trusted in Manitobans to do that. And that’s how our government came to power. We campaigned on healthcare, we won on healthcare and the cost of living, but some part of our victory was also due to the fact that people rejected division in our society. And that experience, the one that we had in Manitoba, to me is the most convincing argument, that turning things back to the voting public in our democracy is the best way to protect the vulnerable minority from the overreaches of majority rule.
So, perhaps I say this as the son of somebody who was not allowed to vote in this country, but who was able to go and be elected as a first minister in this same country. Perhaps I’m saying this as somebody who owes part of his office to the example of the majority standing up for the rights of a vulnerable minority, and perhaps I just say this because I’m a true believer in our democracy. But for whatever the reason, I say that on the notwithstanding clause of Section 33, as with all things in our democracy, the decision should always be left up to you, the voter. And I place my faith in our democracy that way because I trust in you, trust in Manitobans, and I trust in Canadians. Miigwech. Merci. Thank you very much.
Sheamus Murphy
Thank you, Premier Kinew. What an honour to have you here with us tonight. Your leadership and perspective carry weight, and are crucial in Manitoba and beyond. Thank you for your vital contribution to the national conversation about how we strengthen our democracy, and uphold the values that define Canada. We’re grateful that you made the time to be here, and we appreciate your openness in sharing your thoughts with the Empire Club audience.
Now, to help guide tonight’s conversation, I’m pleased to introduce our moderator, David Hurley. David is co-founder of AirQuotes Media, partner at Rubicon Strategy, and a host of both the Hurle Burle and the Curse of Politics podcasts. He’s been a fixture in Canadian politics for decades, starting as a young organizer in Saskatchewan with Ralph Goodale, and later advising leaders such as Prime Minister Paul Martin and Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne. Many of you will also know him from his years of providing political commentary on CBC’s The National. David is known for his sharp analysis, straight talk, and genuine love of politics, as well as a few other lifelong passions: the Liberal Party, the Saskatchewan Rough Riders, the Montreal Canadiens, Hawkins Cheezies, Lemonheart Rum, and black licorice. Please join me in welcoming David Hurley.
David Hurley, Co-Founder, AirQuotes Media; Partner, Rubicon Strategy; Podcast Host
It’s really hard to find good black licorice these days.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I’m a NDP Blue Bombers fan who loves red licorice, so we’re off to like a whole opposite sides of the spectrum to start here.
David Hurley
Premier, it’s a super thrill to be talking with you. I think you’re easily one of the most exciting politicians in the country. You’ve raised partisanship, so I’ll tell you, you’re definitely the only New Democrat the federal Liberals fear in this country, so I’m glad you’re staying out of it.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Oh, you went right into it, eh? That’s great. All right.
David Hurley
But, you know, one of the things that makes you such an exciting figure to me, it flows a little bit from your introduction about your father, which is, I grew up in Saskatchewan in the ’70s and the ’80s. There were no Indigenous people in positions of leadership, in politics, in business, in academia, in anything. And it seemed the most unlikely thing back in those days that an Indigenous person would ever be the premier of a province in Canada, much less a prairie province. What’s the evolution that’s happened that allowed your existence right now?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, Mom and Dad, they’re pretty great.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
But Manitoba’s great, too.
David Hurley
You don’t take my existence thing too literally.
David Hurley
Yeah, no, I won’t get into the birds and the bees—but no, Manitoba’s a great place. And this is what I said on election night, which is, you know, look, little old Manitoba did something more progressive than what a lot of the big cities across this country have never done. And I think that’s a testament to the fact that the reality is always more interesting and more complicated when you’re up close, and you’re in the midst of it. And so, like, I was there, too. I was the only Indigenous kid in the classroom in the ’80s growing up…
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…a lot of times, in Manitoba. And, you know, at the same time, our province has evolved, and we’ve had the ups and downs. We had some very tough moments, like the landfill controversy that I was talking about in my speech. But we placed a calculated bet politically on the nature of Manitobans to see through that, and to focus on the bread-and-butter issues of healthcare and the economy. And I think, yeah, it’s a testament to where we are in Canada today, that if we zoom out from the prairies to the rest of the country, that you know, there is an opportunity to engage on substance, and there is an opportunity to engage in unity. And I think, especially coming out of COVID, which started with us banging on pots and pans for each other and ended with us yelling at each other, people want unity. People want something positive. People want something more hopeful than just the same old attack ads, and stuff like that.
David Hurley
Right. I once had the opportunity to talk to David Axelrod about Barack Obama, and being the first Black president. And the constraints that were around Obama, perhaps, not to give full voice to all the things he thought, to definitely not be the Black president of the United States, but to be the president of the United States, who happened to be Black. Do you feel any special pressure on yourself, in this capacity?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I’m not Black, I’m Anishinaabe. So, I have a lot of respect for Mr. Obama. No, I’m just, I’m picking on you. I’m sorry.
David Hurley
And you’re doing it well.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
No, I mean, like, he made it possible for somebody like me. Like, it didn’t even occur to me before I saw him in the States, right? And I followed him through the nomination. I had a chance to meet him very briefly, right before he secured the nomination. And effectively, after a lifetime of hearing, like, you can’t do it, or negative messages about Indigenous people, I had kind of internalized a glass ceiling in my head. And then I saw this guy who was, like, clearly going to become the president, clearly the most talented politician in the race. And I just thought to myself, oh, I’m telling myself a lie. You know, somebody from a community like mine, somebody who’s had to overcome his own share of whatever, is going to become the most powerful person in the world. And so it didn’t immediately follow, like, hey, and then I’m going to be the Premier…
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…but it’s just like he made something possible in the minds of a lot of people my age. And the best part is, like, for my kids, that’s the first president that they remember. You know? Like, that is their baseline.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
It’s a completely different worldview than those of us like, older, right? And so, I think that’s what happens in our politics when we open things up and we’re more inclusive, is that we just create a new baseline in this country. And so, yeah, like, we’re here, like, yeah, we’re really excited about the future of Canada, and the opportunities that we have. But you know, in Manitoba, people shrug. Like, the kids, they’re like, yep, that’s what a Premier could look like, for sure. And that’s cool.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I think that’s great for the future of our country.
David Hurley
But you don’t feel that you need to comport yourself in a certain way, to be acceptable to the broad public?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I mean, you can talk to my political staff and they will tell you, like, what it’s like to try and wrangle me. So, like, I might feel a certain, you know, whatever, but once the day starts, I just kind of, you know, do my thing, you know, as it were. But I think what I would say to respond to, like, what you’re really getting at here is I think almost by definition, somebody who is going to get into an executive leadership government role like I have has to have the bigger view of being a leader for everybody. Otherwise, it’s just not going to work. You know, you’re not going to have the perspective that would earn the support of enough people to have a majority in government, unless you were looking out for everybody, unless you did have that view of one province, one country that I’m advocating for. So, yeah, I think that, you know, I’m a very staunch practitioner of our traditional culture. I dance at powwows for fun. I think about our language all the time. But at work, I’m trying to fix healthcare. I’m trying to make the economy more affordable. And along the way, if I can bring some kids into the Premier’s office, and let them sit in the big chair and take a selfie, that’s pretty cool, too.
David Hurley
It’s probably a lot of pressure from Indigenous people in Manitoba for you to be more focused on their issues.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
What I would say is, like, I think sometimes people think that there’s going to be, like, a silver bullet or like a cheat code, you know, because they grew up in the community, and they’re like, oh, yeah, I bet the consultation is just, like, super easy, and Section 35 just, like, breezes right past you, you know, because you came from a Reserve. No, not at all. Like, the relationships, and all of that, it takes as much time as I think anyone else does. And I think maybe the one thing that has been a bit different is we have decided in Manitoba that we’re going to take a different approach to the mega project thing, which is instead of trying to legislate our way through, we’re trying to get our consultation ducks in a row before…
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…we go out with things. So I think maybe taking that perspective is informed by coming from the community. But honestly, if you spend any time in a corporate boardroom in Canada over the past 20, 30 years, you will know that this is a way to get things done anyways. So…
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…even there, I don’t think it’s necessarily unique to the community. I think most people who’ve succeeded in building big projects in this country have engaged with Indigenous communities the way that we’re talking about doing it as a provincial government looking to build some mega projects.
David Hurley
Let’s pick up on your speech.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Sure.
David Hurley
I’m pretty interested in it, because I was a Charter junkie, a big fan of the Pierre Trudeau vision. It’s made me a political nerd when I was in university. So I followed all that pretty closely. And Manitoba is deeply responsible for this, because there were other Premiers that were in support of Section 33 of the Notwithstanding Clause, but nobody was as insistent on it as a guy named Sterling Lyon, who was the Conservative Premier of Manitoba, who I think was really afraid that the courts would do precisely what they’ve been doing, in terms of interpreting the Charter. But Ellen Blakeney was also in favour of Section 33, and he thought it might restrict government’s ability to—might even restrict labour’s ability to collectively organize, or it might restrict government’s ability to expropriate land for public purposes. So, they were worried about it from that perspective. The idea that you’ve come up with about the sort of the political check on it is kind of diametrically opposed to the whole idea of a Charter, because the notion is that when rights are being suppressed, often that is the view of the majority. Often, the government’s doing that because it’s a popular thing to do. And so you need this non-political bulwark against that.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I think it comes down to putting more pressure on progressive politicians such as myself to go out and win the argument. That’s effectively why I chose the landfill story. That was a winning wedge strategy. They had us on the ropes with that strategy. We knew healthcare and the economy were number one…
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…and then they found this wedge issue that was going to make everyone forget about healthcare and the economy, and it almost worked.
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
But we put a bet on the good nature of Manitobans, and we said you know what, if we talk to people like mature adults, and we just say you know what, we don’t agree on everything, but we can still do the big things like fixing healthcare and the economy together, we’re going to trust that Manitobans will choose the clear glass of water instead of the dirty glass of water. And they did. And so, to answer your question, I think that that is the role that I’m arguing here is that we have, well in Canada the legislative and executive branch are bundled together, and then we have the judicial branch, and these things are going to effectively act as a balance. The legislative executive side can pass a law, but then the judge could rule, say you know what, this would otherwise violate somebody’s human rights. And then it’s up to you, the voter, and importantly, for that to work you’re going to have the person going out there with the wedge, and say here’s why we’re passing this law, and try to work everybody up into a frenzy against the vulnerable minority. And then it’s up to somebody like me, it’s up to the progressive opponent to that government to come out and say, that’s wrong. They’re violating human rights. That’s not who we are as Canadians. That’s not who we are as people from this province. And instead, here’s the vision that we should rally around. And it helps if you got your own wedge too, but….
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
No, I’m just kidding.
David Hurley
The people who accepted the notwithstanding clause back in ’82, as opposed to the advocates of it, the people who accepted it, certainly thought that it would be used very rarely, because they thought there would be a public shaming. They thought there’d be a public sanction to it. And indeed, Canada’s Charter is unique in the sense that it has something called Section 1 in it, which like the American Bill of Rights does not have, which says that you can actually suppress a right in the Charter, if such a thing can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. So anytime anybody uses Section 33, they’re saying, I’m doing something that cannot be justified in a free and democratic society. I would have thought there would be massive public sanction against that, but there has never been any time that it’s used. So how do you think we need to talk about this differently to people to get them to see this side of it?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I think it’s, it is about making the argument on human rights. I think one of the failings, unfortunately, of progressives—and I think I’m counting both of our political movements on the progressive side when I say this—is we typically, when there’s a hot-button wedge political issue, we’re scared of it, and we run away from it. And I think the bet that we made in the election was like, now we’re just going to grab the bull by the horns, and some things are worth losing elections over, and at the same time, we’re just going to double down on healthcare and the economy. And I think the same would hold true. Like right now, the notwithstanding clause has been used a lot in Québec to work on wedge issues, which are, I would argue, playing on the idea of laïcité and secularism, but are a veiled way to blow a dog whistle. And they’ve been used in the West against trans people. Because people know—and we saw this in our election, too—people want to be able to campaign against LGBT, but they know they can’t say that in public. So they say trans, and they know that people will fill in the blanks, and take the argument to LGBT in private conversation, on the doorstep or otherwise.
And so I think us, as progressives, are people who want to have religious freedom, people who want to have equality in our society, we just have to go out and engage with it and say, no, that’s wrong, that’s against human rights. And you know what? Yeah. And hey, again, the political advice is going to tell you to do the opposite. I think you saw a pretty clear example of this in 2015. Harper tried to do the wedge on the Barbaric Cultural Practices hotline. Trudeau did the smart thing, and he didn’t take the bait, and he won the election. But I voted for Tom Mulcair, and I wasn’t a partisan at the time, in part because he called it out. And so, I think maybe there is a path that the progressive can call out what is targeting a vulnerable minority, and still make the winning election argument to the general public. At least I hope so. It raises the stakes, certainly, but I think it’s possible.
David Hurley
It’s kind of a tangent, but it feels to me, particularly watching what’s happening in the States, that people are so much more interested in getting the outcome that they want than caring about any of the processes that led to it, that a lot of us who believed in institutions and thought that there were rules that needed to be followed are finding that the public doesn’t really care about any of that. And politicians who want to break those walls down can just do it.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Literally, breaking walls down.
David Hurley
Yeah, my god. Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
That’s what I saw in the news yesterday.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
But yeah, I think that’s true. But I think there are some institutions which are worth having the fight for. And there are some institutions worth putting your re-election, or putting your election on the line, or even just on a more micro level, whether or not you won the day in the media. It’s worth putting that on the line to have the argument over some of these issues. And I think human rights are one of those things. And I think equality in our society is one of those things. Other times, maybe we are just arguing about some procedural thing that we’ve inherited from England 400 years ago, and yeah, it’s whatever. But the idea that, you know, somebody should be free to be who they are in our society, that we should respect the rights of religious people, as we respect the rights of the secular and, you know, the atheist and the agnostic. You know, I think these are important things where we should step up and have the fight. Or at least, as I say, have the debate.
David Hurley
All right, let’s talk about Manitoba a little bit, to this bunch of [Indiscernible]…
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
…Canadian, well-heeled canapé eaters.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I cut my Chinese EV joke out of the top of my speech, because I…
David Hurley
Did you?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…didn’t want to lose the room immediately.
David Hurley
Well, you can bring it out now. You can bring it out now. What’s your agenda? What’s your governing agenda in Manitoba right now?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, healthcare takes up a huge amount of our time. It is….
David Hurley
You’re making progress?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
We are making progress. So, we’ve hired 3,400 frontline healthcare staff, which is the first step to being able to do other things. We’ve opened a few emergency rooms that were closed by the previous government. So, those are tangible steps. We’ve opened up a bunch of clinics. And basically, we’re one-tenth the size of Ontario, so just 10x whatever number I say, and then you’d have an idea, right? So imagine Ontario, 34,000 new frontline healthcare staff in two years, right? That’s what we did in Manitoba. So, we’re making progress, but we’ve got a heck of a lot more work to do.
And then on the economy, right? Like, the job numbers are still holding in Manitoba, and inflation has stayed in the target range, which, like, it was high when we came into office. We cut the gas tax, and we brought inflation down to the Bank of Canada target range. So, again, no mission accomplished when it comes to the cost of living for the average person, but we’ve been able to maybe not see the worst-case scenario that everybody was worried about earlier this year. We’ve been able to kind of—and part of it’s just because we have this great, diversified economy in Manitoba, right? We’re never too low, never too high kind of thing. So, yeah, things have been going pretty good in spite of all the unexpected things that have happened this year.
David Hurley
Well, sticking with healthcare for a second.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
In your view, is there any and what is the role for the private sector in delivering healthcare in Manitoba?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I’m a big fan of this private sector healthcare company called the Lisa Monkman Medical Corporation. Because I’m married to my wife, Dr. Lisa Monkman. So, obviously, there’s a role, right? Like, you know, this is sort of the bargain that Tommy Douglas and everybody came up with in your province…
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…which is that there is going to be a role for private corporations. And I think everyone accepts that, right? Like, a private practice for a family physician. Everybody accepts that. On the flip side, like, a fully private healthcare system with, like, you know, unfettered, you know, Big Pharma influence, I think, would make people uncomfortable in this country. So, there’s probably a balance that needs to be struck. And for us, it’s the Canada Health Act. If something’s permitted under the Canada Health Act, okay. We’re open to it. We’ll engage. And let’s find a way to improve health outcomes for people within the Canada Health Act.
David Hurley
In your view, do private, like, say, private MRI clinics or private eye clinics, a lot of these things are springing up in large numbers around the country now. My home province of Saskatchewan is a lot of this. Does that gut the public system, or does that relieve the public system?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I think it depends how it’s done. And again, I think it has to come back to the Canada Health Act, which would say single payer.
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Which, you know, the government has to be the person paying for the test, whether it happens in a public clinic, public hospital, private clinic, etc. So, those are basically the ground rules. I think the other thing that people tend to do in health, as in every industry, is to try and look for the silver bullet. And so, it’s like, yeah, if we just buy an MRI machine, boom, problem solved. But actually, no, it’s the staffing. And that’s why everything we say in health, it always starts with the staffing numbers that we’ve added. Because anything else you want to do, you have to have the people to run the machine, and to book you into the appointment, and to analyze the test. So, there’s a lot of techno-optimism around AI, but I don’t think that that’s going to change overnight. And we are going to continue to need to have these frontline healthcare heroes working on our behalf.
So, again, for us, a lot of the health improvements are about getting the people on board, improving the workplace, improving the culture, setting up systems that allow people to have meaning and to flourish, as, you know, fully formed individuals within this very complicated healthcare system, and to also address the needs of a changing society, which is aging, but also has complex and unique needs. Like in our province, MS is much more prevalent than it is in other parts of Canada. If we came here to southern Ontario, we went to lower mainland B.C.
David Hurley
Is that an Indigenous thing, or it can’t be a Manitoba thing?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
No, it’s actually other communities.
David Hurley
Oh, really? Because I thought MS was a particular problem in the Indigenous community.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Indigenous communities have major issues with type 2 Diabetes, and related issues. So, again, those are other unique regional needs. Same thing, you know, go to other parts of the country, there’ll be unique issues there, and, you know, we just got to find ways to tailor the delivery of healthcare to meet the needs of people where they’re at.
David Hurley
Okay. On the economy, you talked about Manitoba’s relatively good economy, never too low, never too high. It’s kind of low, right? I mean, it’s a it’s an equalization receiving province most years. Back in the day, we used to call those “have-not” provinces.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Still do.
David Hurley
Is there any prospect of that changing?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah, I think if we—so we kind of have three major projects on the horizon, one that we’re almost certainly going to do, a second that we’re trying to put the financing piece together, and then the third, which has been very public, is the Port of Churchill. And if we build the three of those out to the full extent, then yeah, I think Manitoba can become a “have” province. And not like, you know, 40 years in the future, I mean, like within the next five, ten years kind of thing. And yeah, so I think that that’s a big priority for me because the economic horse pulls a social cart, right? This is one of the lines that I repeated time and time again up until, and including, election night. And yeah, healthcare is number one. We love healthcare. We love education. I’m an NDP Premier, so I’m surrounded by all these people who have great ideas on social issues, and social programs. And what I’ve tried to build into our culture from day one is, great, how are we going to pay for it?
So, we need a growing economy. We need more jobs. We need more economic activity in order to pay for the really amazing things that we want to do in government. And so yeah, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how do we take this current economy in Manitoba that’s heavily geared towards Ag—and that’s why the tariffs from China are such a big deal for us—mining, manufacturing, finance, insurance, transportation, and then layer a huge step up in the energy sector, a huge step up in the tech sector on top of that framework. And right now, as most people in the room will probably know, any tech play at a large scale is basically an energy play, and so we have a lot of low carbon electricity in Manitoba, and I think that’s going to be one of our competitive advantages is to try and use that to unlock part of this potential.
David Hurley
So I want to talk about Churchill for sure. What are the other two?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
The other two are not really public yet.
David Hurley
Oh. Okay.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
We’re working them up. But they’re energy projects, basically.
David Hurley
Well, let’s get into Churchill, because again, I have a little bit of history. I used to work with the Canadian Wheat Board, and they were users of Churchill, and…
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
…believed in the Port of Churchill. And it has emerged as a potential national major project. And yet, when I talk to people at the conferences I go to around here, people say the following things to me about it. They say there’s no rail line there, and there’s no port infrastructure there, and the water’s frozen most of the time, and what are we going to ship through there, and to whom, anyway? So are there good answers to those questions?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. But the first thing you got to know is that the people who are saying criticism A, B, C, D are also advocating for a different mega project with the federal government. So, how we have Oppo amongst the parties, we also have Oppo with the mega projects. I’m trying to get that federal dime right now.
David Hurley
You got a war room on mega projects going?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah, yeah. Don’t worry. We can poke holes in every other province’s mega projects—which I won’t do. But yeah, on a more serious level, for sure, there is a rail line. We’d like to upgrade it. There is a port there….
David Hurley
But it would need to be upgraded.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. Yeah. In order to hit the sort of level of investment. Basically, what we’re doing as a province—Chris Avery from the Arctic Gateway Group is here tonight. And so, they’re the port operator. We’re working with them. We’re working closely with the major projects office that the federal government has established, is to just build out that next generation of investment. Right now, we and the feds are each investing on a given year about 30 million dollars each. We invest in the port. The feds invest in the rail line. That’s just kind of how we’ve done the division of powers. And basically, before we go from a 30 million annual investment to a potentially a 30-billion-dollar investment, we just want to get all the due diligence and all the details tied up.
But basically, the fundamental argument for Churchill is this. Western Canadian resources power a huge chunk of the Canadian economy. The closest way to get Western Canadian resources to Europe is through Churchill. Dramatically, dramatically closer, due to the curvature of the Earth. So again, if we can, you know, make this play around critical minerals, and energy, and doubling our export markets.
David Hurley
Non-U.S. export.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. Exactly right. The EU is going to play a part in that. And Churchill will allow us to get goods there more quickly. And there’s ways to solve the various challenges that you’ve laid out. We have something like 16 icebreakers on order, as a country. We only want like one or two, you know, to keep the shipping lane open all year. And yeah, we’re already investing. There’s another economic….
David Hurley
How much is just nature keeping it open right now?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
So right now, it’s about four months a year. By the end of the century—so this is going to be the longer-term argument for Churchill that I make here—by the end of the century, the sea lane will be open because of climate change year round, right? Global warming. So you fast-forward 70 years from now, or whatever, this port is going to be used by Canada. This is going to be a major infrastructure focus. The question is, do we want to like just get caught off-guard, when that opportunity emerges? Or do we have an opportunity and a responsibility right now to build up the infrastructure, so that we’re ready to take full advantage when that sea lane is open year round?
But basically, yeah. Like, you fast forward 70 years in the future, we’re going to be launching rockets from Churchill. There’s going to be compute all over the region. There’s going to be a ton of solar and wind, and other energy infrastructure. And the argument that I’m making is, let’s put the first level of large-scale investment down now, so that we’re ready to capitalize on that future opportunity.
David Hurley
Right. And for some reason, there seems to be no objection to there being a pipeline. Some provinces have political debates over this. You wouldn’t have a political debate over a pipeline?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
We definitely would have a political debate. Like, I mean, a rally of 300 people outside my constituency office because I said we should consider whether we want to have a pipe as part of the Churchill play. So it’s definitely a live issue. But the reality is, I think, this moment in Canada where we just, you know, when was the last time Trump talked about 51st state, like a couple weeks ago, when Carney was there? Right? You have the American President talking about whether we’re going to exist as a sovereign country or not. I think we have responsibility in the name of our country’s future existence to examine every opportunity to grow the economy. And like I said in the speech, it needs to be consistent with our values. Being strong on the environment is one of our Canadian values, I would say. And not necessarily like climate activists. I just mean like people who like to go to Bass Pro shops and, you know, drive boats and be outdoors. That’s part of who we are as Canadians. And I think that yeah, we should just engage in the conversation, and look at it, and see if it makes sense from a business perspective, and from an environmental perspective at the same time.
David Hurley
So, that whole Team Canada mentality feels a little bit more fragile now than it did six months or eight months ago. And I’m not blaming you for that. Don’t get that wrong. But it just feels like the sense of we’re all in this together is a little weakened. And some of it comes down to, so there are real trade-offs. So, you and Scott Moe are dealing with canola producers who have been hit by tariffs from China, because we are protecting the potential for an auto industry which is not likely to occur now. In central Canada, what are your hopes and expectations for how that goes down?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I think it’s important for us to understand that we are currently right now paying the price for Ontario’s auto industry. Right? Like, that’s not a hypothetical. That is a real situation for people in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. And Alberta, the effect is less pronounced because of the oil industry, but there’s still an impact on farmers there. So, like, in effect, we are subsidizing the auto sector through the lost economic opportunity and the opportunity cost for canola producers and pork producers. And that’s just the reality. And there has never been engagement. There’s never been a conversation with us about, like, is this the right course of action for our country?
And you know what? I want to support the auto sector in Ontario. You know, I want to make sure that there’s good manufacturing jobs in Québec. But also, I think it’s necessary for us to engage on a path to lifting these tariffs that are hitting our Ag industry, which is a multi-billion-dollar industry in a province that you just, again, reminded us as a have-not province right now. And so, just to kind of quantify it, we’ve got one vertically integrated pork producer who was in our office a few weeks ago, and it’s 19 million dollars a year on an annualized basis, the Chinese pork tariff, right? And so, that’s a real quantifiable impact that businesses are facing in our part of the country right now. So, to me….
David Hurley
Pork, big industry in Manitoba. People may not know that.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. And a ton of it goes to China….
David Hurley
Both processed and farmed. Right?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Exactly. And we send a lot to the States as well, too. So there’s a lot of uncertainty in the sector. But yeah, the point that I’m making is we are all for Team Canada. And we are doing our part as Team Canada right now. And what we’re saying is, we would also like the industries that are important in our part of Canada to be part of the equation when we’re engaging in DC, when we’re engaging in China. So, Carney’s going to meet President Xi, apparently, he’s trying to. So that’s, that’s good. But at the end of the day, why did we put these tariffs on in the first place, whether it was American or Chinese counter-tariffs? It was to create leverage, so we could have a negotiated path forward. Right? Okay. Let’s see that negotiated path forward. That is, effectively, the argument that I’m making. I’m not trying to say put Canola before the American or the Ontario autoworker. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is, we are currently experiencing impacts, and we need to work together on a path forward here.
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
So the Prime Minister has received criticism from some quarters about not being elbows up the way he promised to be elbows up, and for not being tough enough with the Americans, and not retaliating, and not going into the Oval Office and sucking up to Trump, and not coming away with anything.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Have you made these criticisms? You just had those like right there, ready to go.
David Hurley
They’re right there. They’re right there, because I hear them all the time. I don’t know if you know who my partner is. What do you think?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah, I think they were, the Liberals were elected to stand up to Trump. Full stop.
David Hurley
And they should be, the government should be doing what?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Standing up to Trump.
David Hurley
What would that look like?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I think we need to have some bravado, have a little push back. Let’s show them we’re in the ring. Before I was a partisan, I covered the 2011 provincial election, and the Manitoba PCs, I was there in their campaign headquarters on election night. They had tried to run a positive campaign, when the NDP of the day ran a very negative, awful, heavy campaign. And I asked one of the former cabinet ministers what happened, and he said you know what, when you’re in the ring with your opponent, you gotta get your elbows up, you gotta let them know that you’re in the game. And I kind of think that logic applies. Which is like yes, you need to schmooze and you need—but what does Trump do? He schmoozes in person, and he’s very kind of like perceptive of whatever emotional stuff is going on around him, and then you leave, and then he like calls you names, and he goes crazy on Truth Social, like immediately afterwards. And I’m not saying we need our leaders to be like, oh, we’re gonna go to social media after this, but we do need to have strength, and we do need to show that we’re serious about sticking up for ourselves as a country.
And not for nothing, a lot of Canadians, for a good chunk of this year, have been not buying American booze, have been not travelling to the U.S. and I think are in the process willing to say, like, you know what, to me, national pride is more important than a bad economic deal that we may or may not be running for. Again, I want to play a constructive role in Team Canada. I fully expect to continue to work with the other Premiers and the Prime Minister, but I will always be a voice pushing for us to be stronger against Donald Trump than what we’re seeing right now.
David Hurley
I want to just play off that a little bit, and I’m not really asking this in your capacity as a Premier; I’m just asking this in your capacity as a person, and what you’ve told us that you care about, right? How do you feel when you look at the United States right now? Like, it’s taking me to a dark place, which is why I ask you, because you’ve got a smile on your face.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
So, you know, it’s going to get me in trouble to say this. There are some things that America is doing right, at this current moment, right? And a lot of the stuff that they’re doing in AI, I think, is good. But the way that they’re going about it, and the fact that it’s providing cover for things like ICE, and a lot of the other nasty stuff, I think is wrong. So, again, it’s a tough situation. They’re always going to be our closest neighbour, they’re always going to be our biggest trading partner, and Canadians are always going to have a bone to pick with Americans. Right? Like, this did not start with Donald Trump. We always had this thing of like, “Oh, America!” You know what I mean? Like, as like a sibling does, or as like a really close friend does, where you always, like, hit your limit or your fill of something. And so, yeah, the same is true of the States right now. I just hope that the Democrats can put up somebody who can earn the support of the electorate. You know? I just think that they’ve done a bad job at choosing their candidates recently. And so, yeah, hopefully they pick somebody who’s got game.
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Then they can rebuild the Republic.
David Hurley
So, like, you’re way more sanguine about this than I am. Like, you’re assuming that there’s a 2028 election that’s free and fair and normal, and that Trump doesn’t run in it.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I got good staff who keep me grounded, right? Like, I was like, I was debating going to the inauguration. I didn’t go, but I was debating going, and I was like, “Why not?” I was trying to get all worked up, like how you’re saying you do. I was like, “Why not? This might be the last orderly transfer of power in the Republic.” And then my staffer who was listening and was like, “Ah, save it for your memoirs.” So, you gotta kind of, like, keep it steady, right? You can’t get too high, you can’t get too low.
David Hurley
Right. Okay. I can’t let you go without asking you about politics. You…
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Finally. We’ll talk politics.
David Hurley
…you win elections.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Sometimes.
David Hurley
We’ve just been through, between COVID, and the aftermath of COVID, and then the election of Trump, some massive debates about the nature of our country, right? And about how we want to be, and about how we want to comport ourselves, all kinds of things. And the federal NDP, in my view, were almost completely irrelevant to those discussions in the country, and then in the election got essentially wiped out. What are the federal NDP doing wrong? What advice would you have for them to become part of the Canadian conversation again?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, I think that what we’ve tried to focus on, Manitoba-wise, is just making a difference for the average person out there, you know? And I think that that looks, it might look different today than it did a generation ago, but I don’t know if it does. We just spent the summer in, like, a lost cause rural riding, and we came within 70 votes of winning it, right? One of the safest conservative seats in our province, and it was basically a toss up. Somebody’s little league game went into extra innings, and that was, that’s what determined the outcome of election day. And it was interesting, like, we’re the government, but we were the change candidate showing up in small town Manitoba. They’re like, “Yep, no, I’m not happy with how it is. We need a change. We always vote PC; we’re going to vote for you now.” You know, is what people were saying, which is crazy, to be the government and to be the change candidate. But it was an interesting read to have on the voting public there.
So I just think, like, what I took out of that was this crazy idea that if you show up and talk to people, they will give you a chance. And I think that’s what the federal NDP needs to do, is like, yeah, we get it. Like, the cause du jour is important for everybody. But like, come to Transcona, where people have been working on the rail yards for generations, and explain it to this family who’s struggling to make ends meet how you’re going to help them. Come to the Reserve, where I—like, I spend more time on a Reserve than anybody. And what I used to tell Trudeau when we’d argue about the Carbon Tax, I used to say, “I’ve never seen an electric vehicle on a Reserve.” You know what I mean? He had no comeback, right? And he’s a good guy. Like, we get along, whatever, you know? But you know what? I saw my first electric vehicle on a Reserve…
David Hurley
Get out.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
…two weeks ago, in St. Teresa.
David Hurley
Who’s got a Tesla on a reserve?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
No, it’s not. It’s the medical van. In St. Teresa Point, Manitoba, it is an EV. And they, like, load up all the patients, drive them around. So, anyway, so, you know, change is coming. But, you know, show up in that community, and explain how you’re going to make life better. Go to the suburbs where elections are decided, and explain what you’re talking about, how it’s relevant to them, and it’s going to make things better.
David Hurley
And does ideology make sense in that context? Do you talk ideology to them? Do you talk class conflict with them?
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, to me, like, the ideology is making a difference for the average person.
David Hurley
Right.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. Like, so, some people have different ideas of what the NDP is, and like, you know, I’d love to hear, and trust me, it’s very different in Ontario, what people think the NDP is, compared to Manitoba, or Saskatchewan, or Alberta, or BC. Like, when I was chosen as leader in 2017, I’d give my victory speech there, I’d walk off stage, there’s a guy from Swan River, Manitoba, five hours northwest of Winnipeg, grabs my hand in a bear paw, “Wab! Every NDP leader in this province since Ed Schreier has gone on to become Premier, that’s what we expect from you.” And he, like, throws my hand down.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
That is the expectation. We’re not here to make a point, we’re not here to, like, have a consolation prize, we’re here to win government. That is the expectation of the NDP in Western Canada, right, at the provincial level, at the very least. And so, again, what is the NDP about? To me, the NDP is the party that made a difference for people that I knew. Who helped my dad, when he was not allowed to leave the Reserve without a pass? Stephen Lewis. Who helped my mother-in-law, who was smart, but living in poverty, get her education paid for, she goes on to become a teacher, a principal, raises her daughter, her daughter becomes a medical doctor, and now the family will never be in poverty again. Who did that? Howard Pauley.
David Hurley
That’s one of the most inspiring stories I’ve ever heard. I heard you give that, tell that story at a speech in Toronto…
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
…a couple years ago. It’s a compelling, compelling story.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Well, it’s Howard Pauley, NDP government that did it. And again, the fundamental thing that I think of when I think of the NDP in Western Canada, or Northwestern Ontario, where we’re from, the NDP is like, these folks that you’re talking about reaching, they have the will, they have the smarts, they just need a little help getting started. And it’s been NDP governments that help the people that I know get started, or NDP politicians. And to me, that’s the ideology, is helping people. And hey, I’ve got no problem helping somebody who makes 200 grand a year, for the record. When we cut the Gas Tax in Manitoba, many progressive heads exploded. How could you do this? You know, it helps the rich. You know what? They’re struggling too, in terms of somebody with a $200,000 salary. They’re struggling with the cost of living. I’m here to help everybody. I’m gonna help the kid on the Reserve. I’m gonna help the person in the small rural community. I’m gonna help this family that’s living in maybe a more elevated living condition. And this is, to me, what the NDP is all about. It’s a party that should be about bringing people together. And yeah, I don’t think that finding ways to categorize people into different hierarchies, or different groups, is the right way to bring people together. I think you should focus on a message that unites, and that’s what I would encourage folks in the federal NDP to focus on.
David Hurley
Excellent. Speaking of a party that brings people together, you’re hosting the Grey Cup this year.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
I really hope the Blue Bombers are gonna be one of them.
David Hurley
Well, I really hope they’re not, but I’m likely to be there regardless, so I hope you’ll give me a hotspot or something, when we run into each other.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah, no. But hopefully you’re sitting in the stands like you did once upon a time, Sorrel boots, skidoo suit on.
David Hurley
Skidoo suit.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Big garbage mitts.
David Hurley
Yeah.
The Hon. Wab Kinew
Yeah. That’s what the Prairies are all about. CFL games.
David Hurley
Anyway, all you Hurle Burle heads, we’ll see you at the Grey Cup in Winnipeg in November. Premier Kinew, thank you so much for this great company.
Sheamus Murphy
Wow. Thank you to our panel for an engaging and thoughtful conversation. Tonight’s discussion reminds us just how important it is to keep dialogue alive, especially on the issues that define Canada’s future. I’d like to take a moment to recognize our Lead Sponsor, Vale Base Metals. Vale is a global leader in producing the critical minerals that power modern life, from the technologies driving clean energy to the materials that build stronger, more sustainable communities. Their work connects directly to the themes we’ve explored tonight, resilience, responsibility, and the choices that shape Canada’s place in the world. We’re proud to have Vale Base Metals as a partner for this evening’s event, and appreciate their continued support of conversations that move Canada forward. Please join me in welcoming Emily Olson, Chief Sustainability and Corporate Affairs Officer from Vale Base Metals, to share a few closing appreciation remarks.
Note of Appreciation by Emily Olson, Chief Sustainability & Corporate Affairs Officer, Vale Base Metals
It’s always much harder for me to get up on these. Thank you, Sheamus, for the warm introduction. Premier Kinew, thank you for your inspiring words tonight. You are a very tough act to follow. I will do my best. As Sheamus said, I’m Emily Olsen. I’m the Chief Sustainability and Corporate Affairs Officer here in Toronto at Vale Base Metals, and we are a very proud Canadian Critical Minerals producer, and it’s been very great to be here tonight, and the conversation was great. I think I would have liked it to continue. I had many more questions for the dialogue, but it really is an honour for me and a pleasure to thank you, as we gather here tonight on Treaty 13 land, and to share in your wisdom and your vision for Canada. Your positive leadership in setting not only Manitoba’s agenda, but also Canada’s agenda, to navigate our rapidly changing world.
These are very uncertain times. Now more than ever, our allies need stable partners such as Canada to provide courage and security. We don’t know what tomorrow brings, but we need our friends. At Vale Base Metals, we understand this very well, and it is our mission to provide mineral security for a world in transition. I travel the world sometimes too much, a great deal, and I know first-hand really a stronger, inclusive Canada. As you outlined tonight, it makes a difference, and it will create a more just, safe, and prosperous place. A strong Canada means a better world to Canadians and all global citizens. And I’m a new Canadian, and proud to be working here on a critical minerals agenda that I know that will be impactful to both Canada and the world. So, your words are special to me tonight. In a world where friendship, partnership, trade, and security can no longer be taken for granted, I am grateful for the leadership that is yours.
The journey to prosperity, security, resilience, and inclusivity continues. For our mine, and the community of Thompson, Manitoba, to Bay Street, to Main Street in Winnipeg, we stand united. Government, industry, community, to respect and protect the values that make our families, our neighbours, and our country strong. Diversity, inclusion, respect, and resilience. You’re being mindful of the past, being competitive to the present, and being courageous for the future. And with your leadership, I am confident Manitoba and Canada will continue to light that way. So, please join me in thanking Premier Kinew for his words and his leadership, and hope everyone has a good evening.
Concluding Remarks by Sheamus Murphy
Thank you, Emily. Thank you again to Premier Kinew, David Hurley, our distinguished guest sponsors, and of course to all of you for joining us. As we wrap up, I want to make a plug for the Empire Club’s exciting new membership program. Please see our staff at the registration desk for more information.
And I hope you’ll join us on November 6th for decades in six years featuring Ontario’s Attorney General, Doug Downey, on how technology and innovation are transforming the province’s justice system. And wait, there’s more. On November 20th, we’ll be welcoming Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria for “Protecting Ontario with Historic Investments in Transportation Infrastructure,” a look at how record investments in transit, roads, and highways are driving growth and keeping Ontario moving. Tickets for both events are on sale now.
As always, and as a club of record, all Empire Club events are available to watch and listen to on our website, and the Hurle Burle podcast. The recording of today’s event will be available shortly. Thank you all for being a part of this important conversation. Enjoy the networking reception, and we look forward to seeing you at future events. This meeting is now adjourned.
