March 4, 2025
The Empire Club of Canada Presents
Ehren Cory, CEO of Canada Infrastructure Bank: Powering Canada’s Future
Chairperson: Jenna Donelson, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Distinguished Guest Speaker
Ehren Cory, CEO, Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)
Moderator
Sean Speer, Co-Founder & Editor-at-Large, The Hub
Panellists
Michelle Chislett, Executive Vice President, Onshore Renewables, Northland Power
Peter Gregg, President & CEO, Nova Scotia Power
Tracy Primeau, Board Director, OPeter Gregg
Head Table Guests
Steven Furlan, Partner, McCarthy Tétrault
Peter Hepburn, Head of Power of Infrastructure Financing, Fixed Income, National Bank Financial
Welcome Address by Jenna Donelson, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Jenna Donelson, Chair of the Board of the Empire Club of Canada, and your host for today’s event.
To formally begin, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering on the Traditional and Treaty Lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. I encourage you all to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you live and work.
Today’s event would not be possible without the generous support of our sponsors. The Empire Club is a non-profit organization, and our sponsors generously support the club. They make events like this possible, and they make viewing complimentary for those of you that are online. So, please join me in extending a big thank you to our Lead Sponsors, McCarthy Tétrault, and National Bank Financial Markets. And thank you, as well, to our Supporting Sponsor for today’s event, Level5 Strategy. Thank you. We also deeply appreciate the ongoing support of our Lead Season Sponsors, Bruce Power, and Hydro One, and our VIP Reception Season Sponsors, Waste Connections of Canada, and Ellis Don. Thank you, for your ongoing support. And finally, thank you to our Media Partner, the Toronto Star, and our AV Partner, Bespoke Audio Visual. We appreciate you.
If you have a question for our speakers today, please scan the QR code that you will find on your program, or through the Q&A function if you’re online. For those of you online, if you require technical assistance, reach out using the chat function.
Everyone here today knows that infrastructure is more than just concrete and steel. It’s the foundation of our economy, our communities, and our shared prosperity. And as Canadians, we truly understand its importance, and just how challenging it can be to make this happen. Look at the efforts to expand broadband to connect every corner of the country, so that we can create new economic opportunities, and improve people’s quality of life. Or how our growing communities have made conversations about water, and wastewater infrastructure, commonplace in our national discussion on building more homes. Infrastructure is core to so many of the conversations we’re having in Canada right now. And it’s core to these conversations because infrastructure is more than policy. It’s about people, and how the choices we make today will shape Canada for generations to come. So, today’s conversation comes at a critical time. And it’s an opportunity to explore how strategic investments can drive progress, create jobs, and ensure a more sustainable future for all Canadians.
To help kick off this timely conversation, it’s my pleasure to invite one of our Lead Sponsors, to deliver opening remarks. Steven Furlan is a partner at McCarthy Tétrault, and here to open us up. Please join me, in welcoming to the stage, Steven Furlan.
Opening Remarks by Steven Furlan, Partner, McCarthy Tétrault
I think I’ll need my glasses—I thought I had it in big enough type to not do it, but I don’t, so just one second. So, good afternoon. I’m Steve Furlan, a partner at McCarthy Tétrault, and it’s McCarthy Tétrault’s privilege to be the sponsor of today’s event. So, some quick introductions, for today. First, our panel. I’d like to extend our thanks to our main speaker, Ehren Cory, and our other panellists, Michelle Chislett, Peter Gregg, and Tracy Primeau, and our moderator, Sean Speer, all for being here today. Thank you very much. Very much looking forward to hearing their remarks. Their topic is collaboration within the energy sector, and how we can achieve our infrastructure goals. And I just don’t think there are four better-placed people to discuss that topic, so it should be very, very enlightening.
Second, about the Canada Infrastructure Bank. The CIB has fostered collaboration between government, the private sector, and First Nations. And that collaboration has delivered truly unique projects, financed and delivered them—and I know many people in this room have been a part of that, and can attest to that. And these projects have been driving our country forward, both economically and socially. It’s really exciting public policy that the CIB has been involved in, and as I said, most, many of us in this room have seen it firsthand. And I’ve seen it firsthand, and had the privilege of working on a number of those projects, and we at McCarthy’s have been truly privileged to contribute to that model of success.
Finally, just a quick thank you for everyone being here today, taking time out of your busy day, coming here, and listening in on this conversation—which is a very important conversation—and supporting that conversation. I hope you will enjoy what I think will be a very powerful and thought-provoking panel. I know I’m looking forward to it, and very excited to get going. Thank you.
Jenna Donelson
Thank you, Steven, for opening us up. As you mentioned, today’s topic, as with so many that we cover in this room, is critical to Canada’s future, infrastructure investment and innovation. The Canada Infrastructure Bank is working to move transformative projects forward in partnership with the private and public sector, and our Indigenous communities. As Steven mentioned, I’m delighted that we have its CEO with us today. Ehren Cory joined the CIB in 2020, with a focus on accelerating new infrastructure investment through partnerships with the private and public sector, and Indigenous communities, and he’s here to give us an important update today. So, please join me in welcoming to the stage, Ehren Cory.
Wonderful. And I’m also delighted to introduce today’s moderator. You all know Sean Speer. He is the co-founder and editor-at-large of The Hub, and he has an extensive background in public policy and economic strategy. It’s worth also noting that today’s conversation will be recorded for The Hub Podcast, a series of in-depth conversations on public policy, economics, and current affairs. So, will you all join me in welcoming to the stage, Sean Speer. Over to you, Sean.
Sean Speer, Co-Founder & Editor-at-Large, The Hub
Thank you. Thank you so much. What a kind introduction. If it’s true that everyone here knows me, it says much more about the Empire Club audience than it does my popularity. I’m glad, I hope that is part of the podcast, because I will play it back to my mother and father in Thunder Bay. I am really glad to be here, and to take part in this conversation. As I thought about what we might talk about today, I was struck by all of the entry points into a lot of the bigger issues that our country is facing right now, and the role that infrastructure investments can play to help us get through the challenges in the short term, but ultimately, lay the foundation for economic growth and prosperity over the long term. And that, of course, is part of the DNA of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.
And I thought I would start, Ehren, if you’ll permit me, by just asking a question about where you’ve come, and how you see your organization and its place in Canada’s economy. Early on, of course, there were some concerns about a sense that projects were “stuck”. You’ve since unstuck those projects; you now have 80 investments across the country. Why don’t you just reflect on where you’ve come, how you’ve evolved, and the contribution that you’re making to Canada’s economy today.
Ehren Cory, CEO, Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)
Great. And it’s a pleasure to get to do this with you, Sean. I know you, you’re being modest, but you do a lot of thinking in this space, and in the broader space of public policy, so this is fun to do. And thanks, everyone, for being here.
You know, the CIB is a relatively young institution. We were founded in 2017, really launched—our first employee started in 2018—so it’s not that long, in the arc of time. But I think what has happened is we’ve really figured out two things. And the theme of—one of those two is the theme of today’s discussion.
The two things are: number one, you have to start from what is the problem we’re trying to solve. And I don’t think, you know—I’m going to mis-paraphrase this, but the first step of solving a problem is admitting you have one.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
Like, we can’t afford all the infrastructure that we need. We’re a very big country, we’re a trading nation; infrastructure is the glue of our economy, and our society. It connects us as people, it makes goods flow. We need a lot of it.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
And that is a fact of geography, history, and our economy. And it’s expensive. And if you don’t start from recognizing that we can’t afford everything we want, you can’t get very far in the conversation. So, I think at the CIB, we got very clear over the first few years, as you say, why are projects stuck? Like, what is the thing that’s getting in their way? And the two things, really, are affordability—so, how do we help make infrastructure projects more affordable? How do we smooth the impact on, for instance, electricity ratepayers? Because if we build all this stuff, if you look at every chart of how much new power we need to build, and how are we going to get off coal in some of our country, and how are we going to electrify whole economies, the demand is massive, the cost of that is massive, and the cost of that all ends up falling on taxpayers or ratepayers, on Canadians.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
So, the first thing is, we have to figure out how to make infrastructure more affordable. The second is, many of these projects come with quite big risks. You’re building a 75-year asset, a new dam, or something like that. We don’t know what climate is going to look like, what rainfall, like the modelling and understanding—traffic patterns, who’s going to use transit, where do we work from, how do we work. You’re making 50-year bets on that, 75-year bets. There’s a lot of risk in that. So, again, that’s a thing that we can buffer. So, when we figured out that those were the two problems, we could then think about how do we create solutions to that, how do we create financing tools that help lower costs, or help share that risk. That’s the key.
The second key thing that we figured out is all about partnership, and about figuring out how do we collaborate between private sector, governments at all levels, and Indigenous communities and Indigenous Peoples, to create shared interest in these projects, shared economic interest in these projects, and better alignment. Because if you look at the other thing that sticks projects in our country, it’s a lack of that.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
Collaboration is the flip side of what’s gotten in our way, which is misalignment between governments of various levels, the private sector, and Indigenous Peoples.
Sean Speer
And for those who haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about the CIB, why don’t you just let us in a bit on the process that you’ve gone through, to build that capacity, to, to be in a position now, where you’re iterating on the various processes and mechanisms that you’ve used, and where you’re in a position to make an important contribution to Canada’s economy?
Ehren Cory
I mean, the best way to think of the CIB is, is really, somewhere akin to a development bank that you’d find in other parts of the world…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
…but we’re domestically-focused, and we’re playing that role for Canadian infrastructure. It’s not a totally novel concept—you see versions of it all the way back to the ’50s in Europe, as they did reconstruction post-World War II, so we did not invent a new thing. But we’ve certainly, I think, taken it further, and made it Canadian, in the sense of thinking through partnerships across public-private sectors, and in figuring out what asset classes matter to Canada.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
So, we’re not the only people to do it, but we’re certainly doing it a very Canadian way. So, we’ve built this capability now. We’re a team of about 150 people, many, a number of them in the room today—and a big thanks to our team, who work incredibly hard at the CIB, to…
Sean Speer
Hear, hear.
Ehren Cory
…bring projects to life. But we are out across the country, talking to renewable power developers, the utilities, or in other sectors, the ports of Canada, or our airport sector, and all of the key sectors of infrastructure, to understand their needs, and to then try and tailor solutions, to help get the projects moving. And that’s really what our team is, every day, engaging with provincial governments, mayors, Indigenous leaders, and private sector developers, who have projects that are stuck, and it’s our job to help them figure out how to move them.
Sean Speer
What’s interesting, in the past couple of years, it seems to me, is we are seeing the emergence of a political consensus in Canada, the US, and other Anglo-American countries, around the notion of building, broadly-defined. Talk a bit about the role of private capital, in bringing expression to this instinct to want to build across asset classes.
Ehren Cory
Well, I think we’ve—it’s funny, we’ve talked for a long time about how the private sector should be investing more in infrastructure. You hear the conversation a lot of different ways, and I know some of you in this room, you know, sometimes, it’s expressed as, “Boy, we have these amazing Canadian pension funds, and they invest all over the world. Why aren’t they investing more in Canada?”
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
Sometimes, you hear it expressed as, “We’re going to build a subway, and the private sector is going to pay for it,” here in Toronto. And so, I think the thread underneath all of that is that infrastructure assets, they have some things going for them. They do, usually, have customers. They have—unlike, some sectors of infrastructure do not; our public schools, our hospitals. And those, really, the only way to pay for those is through tax revenue. Those are government-run, and owned services in Canada, at least the way we deliver them.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
That’s great. But there is a class of infrastructure: you build a new subdivision, and you need water pipes, to go to that subdivision. There are customers. The problem is, they don’t exist yet, and the ramp-up of them is going to be slow, but there is a customer base. So, there’s a way that private capital can engage in that.
Now, that project of putting those water pipes in the ground for that new subdivision might not meet the hurdle rate of the private capital, which is where we can come in. By the way, if it does, and those projects exist all over the country, they’re happening without us, and they should be. That’s great. Let’s take that slice off the table. No government needs to be involved in that, and no tool like us needs to be. Those will happen. But there’s a middle trosh; it’s a massive—using my water pipe, for an example—it’s a massive opportunity to build new housing. And the old growth-pays-for-growth formula that municipalities get told might be true, but it might take 30 or 40 years—and by the way, their budgets are crashed as they are now, so they can’t really afford to make an investment in that water infrastructure, and wait 30 years.
So, that’s where a tool like the CIB can help make the project work, so that a private sector player can make their rate of return, and can be in the project. Governments don’t have to take it on as a grant. We’re a lending tool. We get paid back. If the housing get built faster than expected, we might get paid back faster, or at a higher rate of return. So, that is how government can play a role in making the private capital get mobilized. And so, I think that, across sectors where there’s a user pay in electricity, and in water, and in our ports, and airports, and in our transit, there are many of our sectors of our economy and our infrastructure where there’s a user pay model that the math doesn’t fully work. You know, you don’t see anybody just privately building a new subway in Toronto, right?
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
That’s not how this works. But there are users and customers that, at least partially, can pay for that infrastructure. And so, that’s where private capital can play.
Sean Speer
As someone who thinks a lot about building stuff in Canada, in addition to access to capital, or the structuring of deals, what are some of the other impediments that you think policymakers ought to be focused on?
Ehren Cory
Well, I think there are a few, and we see them repetitively across our projects. One is supply of labour.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
And we really face a critical shortage, in this country, of—at all levels, of the skilled labour required to build things. And large projects are really unique, in the, they require all of the technical capability, but there’s also an incredible amount of project management and engineering expertise that—we went a generation in this country of not really building, by virtue of not building those sorts of ambitious projects.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
And so, that’s one challenge. The second that we observe is that you really, all the projects that we’re part of, that go quickly, go because they’ve got great alignment in their stakeholders, they’ve got Indigenous partners at the table, usually participating economically, so I think that’s a key, in Canada, and they have supply chains worked out, so that they can get building quickly, which I think is even going to be more of a challenge in the world, going forward.
Sean Speer
I alluded, earlier on, to challenges with our relationship with the United States, the potential threat of, of tariffs, and their economic impact. May I ask about the role of infrastructure projects to support economic output in the short term, and how policymakers may be able to leverage CIB’s model, to, to play a part of that?
Ehren Cory
Well, I think that infrastructure has never been more important than in a time like this.
Sean Speer
M’hm (affirmative).
Ehren Cory
If you think of the challenge we face in front of us, the one thing that is common across all of them is infrastructure is part of the solution. So, what do I mean? Getting our goods to market, to lots of markets, sounds like it’s more important than ever. And…
Sean Speer
Yeah.
Ehren Cory
…relying on our current trade pathways has gotten us in trouble. And so, I think investing in the east-west trade and transportation corridor, to allow for better trade across our country, and to create more exit points for our goods, is going to be really important. We’ve got an investment, just to cite one example, in the Port of Prince Rupert, in northern BC, which is all about expanding the port, and expanding its capacity to both do import and export of more commodities, and more goods. So, this is about transloading stuff that has historically not gone in containers, and being able to containerize them and ship them out. This kind of opening up new pathways to markets, I think is going to be super important.
I also think electricity supply—and again, the east-west interconnectivity of our electricity supply, is going to be more important than ever. We have quite a good grid connection going north and south…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
…in many parts of our country, but not as good going east and west. So, I think those are just two examples of what I think is a larger trend. Investing in Canadian infrastructure is going to be incredibly important. Not to mention, Sean, you kind of hinted at this, but look, infrastructure has a short-term benefit, too. And I don’t focus on this as much, because we’re really thinking about the value of the asset, but infrastructure is stimulus, it’s jobs, and it builds domestic supply chains. Most infrastructure projects, 80% of the spend-plus is domestic.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
And you might be buying big supplies—I don’t know, you might get your turbines from somewhere else, if you’re doing a wind project. But labour, engineering skill, and expertise, lots of the supply chain. Think of the nuclear industry, here in Ontario, and what it has turned into, in terms of a supply chain. That’s what infrastructure looks like. So, that’s very good in the short term, and I think it makes us more resilient in the longer term.
Sean Speer
Yeah. Brilliant answer. At the outset, Ehren, you talked about the importance of partnerships at the Canada Infrastructure Bank. And with that in mind, I’m going to invite some others to join us, from some of the partner organizations with whom you’ve worked, to talk about their own efforts to build energy infrastructure across the country, but also, working alongside you. And so, may I welcome Michelle Chislett, the Executive Vice-President of Onshore Renewables for Northland Power, Peter Gregg, the President and CEO of Nova Scotia Power, and Tracy Primeau, a Board Director from Ontario Power Generation, to please join us.
We’re grateful to have a perspective of people who are, indeed, building things across the country. And I thought, Michelle, I’d kick it off with you. Your organization’s involved in a major energy storage project, that’s a joint venture with a number of parties, including Six Nations of the Grand River. Tell us a bit more about the partnership, and the lessons that some others across the country may take from it.
Michelle Chislett, Executive Vice President, Onshore Renewables, Northland Power
Sure. And I think just to take a quick step back, so in the, the spirit of infrastructure, I think our organization, Northland Power, we’re deploying $15 billion worth of infrastructure, across the world. So, we’ve got offshore wind in Poland, offshore wind in, in Taiwan, and then of course, our flagship energy battery storage project, here in Ontario. So, for us, we’re true believers in infrastructure and what it can enable.
So, Oneida is a first-of-its-kind project, 250-megawatt, four-hour battery project. Really, the first of its kind, as I mentioned, for many reasons. But one of them is because of the partnership, so—several of which are here today—we’ve got a lot of the impetus of this project. And the vision behind it was due to the original developer, NRStor, as well as the Six Nations of the Grand River. So, I think Annette, Joe, you guys are here…
Sean Speer
Hear, hear.
Michelle Chislett
…Matt, as well. So, that was just a tremendous vision to have. And then, as with every partnership, we firmly believe that the collaboration that happened, as we sort of added on partners—Northland, we came on in 2022, and really helped with developing the rest of the project, the financial expertise, in order to get us through financing, and also AECON, who is not just building the project, but also an owner in it. So, I think just in those, you know, the description of the partners, I think you can see the expertise that gets brought in, and—through any infrastructure project, but in particular, a first-of-its-kind, you know, the path is not necessarily a straight one. And so, bringing the strength of the partners to the table is really, really, really important.
And then I’d be remiss to say, because I’m sitting beside you, but also because it’s true, is certainly, the risk profile of the project was something new. And in order to get us through financial close really required sort of a creative approach to financing. And that’s where the Canada Infrastructure Bank stepped up, and was really a catalyst for making the project reality. So, we are building it today, we’re going through the last phases of construction. And again, we got here because of the strong partners, and the collaboration, and also with CIB. So, looking forward to later this year, making it operational, and making it a true reality.
Sean Speer
Peter, do you want to follow up, and just talk about the efforts by NSPI to build out Nova Scotia’s energy infrastructure?
Peter Gregg, President & CEO, Nova Scotia Power
Sure. We’ve been on a really interesting journey. I should first say hello, to my Ontario friends. You know, I’m originally from here, relocated Nova Scotia, and it’s so nice to see so many friends in the sector, when I come back. So, hello, everyone. But yeah, we’ve been on a real journey in Nova Scotia, in terms of it really transforming our grid. We have been traditionally reliant on coal, as the main source of generation. And that started because it was a domestic resource. But we know we can no longer burn coal. And so, the province is going through a process to, essentially, shut down coal by 2030, and replace it largely with renewable energy. And so, you know, from a, from a percentage penetration of variable renewable energy, we’re probably world leaders, even though it’s a relatively small grid, and things like our Grid-Scale Battery project—it sounds familiar to the Oneida one—where we’ve got 150 megawatts of four-hour duration storage under construction. Currently, the first two sites are under construction right now; next one will be in service next year. And it was really the collaboration with, with CIB, to enable us to do that.
And you know, we talk about the energy trilemma. It’s got to be affordable, it’s got to be reliable, and it’s got to be decarbonized. And you know, CIB really helps us with that, in terms of the rate impact, by coming in and offering innovative products. We also got some direct grant money from the federal government, that has helped make that project more affordable. But also, working with the CIB team, to come up with tools that allow our First Nations partners. We’ve got all 13 Mi’kmaq communities are equity owners in the Grid-Scale Battery project, and I know that’s very similar to Oneida. And I think that has to be the way, when we build these projects. And it has fundamentally changed our relationship with the Mi’kmaq, and it was through the tools that we were able to develop jointly with CIB, that allows low-cost financing that, basically, the Mi’kmaq communities can turn into equity in the project.
Sean Speer
That’s great. Tracy, as I understand, there’s a similar story at OPG. Why don’t you talk a bit about how you’re building North America’s first SMR, and the collaboration with Indigenous communities, and its importance in getting that project off the ground.
Tracy Primeau, Board Director, OPG
Sure. Thanks, Sean. So, we are also in the first-of-a-kind world. I was speaking at a panel this morning and, and I said, it’s the biggest board question. You know, the biggest board concern is, is around the first-of-a-kind. But we’re very proud to be leading, leading that, in that that build at the DNP, Darlington Nuclear Project. So, it is, we have applied for the licence to construct with the CNSC, and we expect to hear back on that within, you know, the next few months. But we’re not just waiting for that. We’re preparing the site already. We have, we’ve done a lot of work in that, in that area, getting ready for what they call pre-assembly building. And we expect to have the first SMR commercially-available, on grid, by the end of the decade. And then we, we are already planning and getting ready for the next three. So, there will be, we expect there to be four SMRs at that site, 300 megawatts each, 1200 megawatts total, which is the equivalent of 1.2 million homes electricity.
We have, we started engaging with the First Nations communities in the Darlington DNP area as soon as we started talking about this. And to be honest with you, even before that, OPG has worked on, on starting those relationships. I can’t say enough, as an Indigenous person, how important it is to engage before you actually have a project in hand. Build a relationship, have a cup of tea, go and introduce yourself to the Chief and Council, you know, sit down and just get to know each other, before you show up with “Here’s what we want to do now.” You want to build that relationship first, before you come with your hand out, or—either, either asking or, or partnering—which is really, you know, the goal for OPG is to, is to have not just procurement opportunities, employment opportunities, but equity partnership opportunities. And, and the, and the reason that we’re able to move ahead on that is because we started engaging early and often, and transparently, as well. I will add that.
We also, I also want to mention that, to your point, Michelle, about collaboration, this project has what they call—I’m going to get it wrong—IPD, I think?
Ehren Cory
M’hm (affirmative). Yep.
Tracy Primeau
Is it IPD? Okay. Thank you—my OPG table’s over here—so, it’s four companies: OPG, AtkinsRéalis, AECON, NGE, Hitachi, together are, are running this project, to build this first SMR. So, there’s leaders from each of those companies at, at all of the decision-making tables. And not just at the top, like at the executive table, but project leads, project managers. All four of those companies are coming together, and making those decisions. So, so it’s not like OPGs, you know, telling everybody else what to do; they’re making those decisions together. And I also should mention the working with the CIB on this project has been, has been another collaboration that we have been able to do, and we hope to do more.
Sean Speer
Ehren, a throughline to Peter, Tracy, and Michelle’s observations is the role of Indigenous participation, talk a bit about how the CIB is facilitating that type of participation, particularly with respect to energy infrastructure.
Ehren Cory
Sure. So, in general, I’ll just do quickly, we have, there’s two ways that we’re really focused on this topic. Firstly, I should I should say in, shortly after I started in the role, we got direction from the government that we have thirty five billion dollars of money the CIB is meant to be investing across projects. And as you talked about, we’re, we’re about a about thirteen-and-a-half billion of that committed so far. So, we’re kind of a bit past a third of the way of our portfolio committed. We got a direction, in 2021, that said there needs to be meaningful Indigenous participation. And so, we were given a target of at least, across that portfolio, at least a billion dollars of that in benefit of, and in the participation with, Indigenous communities. And we’re at about somewhere around six hundred million today. And so, we’re going to, frankly, we’re going to well exceed that billion-dollar—that, that’s a floor, not a ceiling, I often say. And we’re well on track, just in the in the projects that we currently have in our pipeline, to go well past that.
There are two things we’re doing. One is what we call Indigenous Community Infrastructure, that, this is not really power-related, but this is a wastewater treatment facility that allows a community to expand, its road network and infrastructure, or the enabling in for to add houses to reserve. Those, we really had to—you know, our original minimum investment size was a hundred million dollars of our money, which usually means a project of two-to-three hundred million dollars. That is not the scale of infrastructure need, in a community that wants to build 10 new houses.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
So, we had to create it. We have a separate investment team, that really works on working directly with Indigenous communities. And we’ve scaled, we’ve simplified a lot of our lending, so that we can do a eight-million-dollar loan to a community, to get something built. So, we call that ICII, or Indigenous Community Infrastructure. And that’s been incredibly powerful in, as I say, in all of our sectors, in addition to reserve green infrastructure, there’s building retrofits we’re doing. So, that’s really exciting.
The other thing is, as Peter mentioned, and our project, the battery storage project in Nova Scotia was our first of this, what we call Indigenous Equity Lending. So, this is where we will lend money to an Indigenous community or economic development corporation, so that they can buy a stake in the project. We’re lending them the money—they’re putting in some of their own money, as well; there’s always some amount of shared skin in the game. So, Indigenous communities, with a loan from us, are putting, getting equity in these projects and being meaningful, therefore, participants economically in the projects. And as I said, the battery storage projects were the first. We’re now seeing that in wind and solar procurements across the country. I think future transmission projects will look that way, too. Because I think, as many people have said—I think I’ve heard you say this before, Tracy—like, there are no energy, no electricity projects in this country that aren’t cut across or in Indigenous…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
…lands. So, I mean, it’s not about having a seat at the table, actually—it’s your table, and we get to be at it. So, I think there it’s almost just a fact that that’s how projects are getting done now.
Sean Speer
And it seems to me—just, if I can make an aside—that those types of innovative financing arrangements don’t only, don’t only ensure that the benefits of those projects are broadly distributed and benefit those communities over the long term, but they also serve the purpose of satisfying constitutional and legal requirements that, that these communities are properly consulted. If they become equity partners, then ostensibly by definition, they’ve been consulted sufficiently. And so, it seems to me there is a win-win opportunity both for those communities, and for the country as a whole, in order to get these, these projects moving. I want to put a question to Michelle and Peter. I said at the outset that, as I was preparing for today’s conversation, I was struck by the various entry points into some of the broader policy discussions we’re having as a country right now. Why don’t you both reflect on how progress on interprovincial trade barriers would benefit our capacity to build?
Peter Gregg
Want me to go?
Sean Speer
Sure.
Peter Gregg
Sure. Well, Premier Houston, I think, has acted first of, of any of the premiers across Canada, where he’s introduced legislation to actually break down the provincial barriers we’ve got, to think more regionally, think more nationally, and have that economic flow go across the east-west, rather than north-south. And I, I think it’s an idea that we need to replicate across, across the country. I think, too, that we need to be thinking more regionally, as we think from an electricity sector perspective. You know, we’ve got a subsea cable that we own, that connects us to Newfoundland. So, we get access to the vast hydro resources in Labrador, and that helps us decarbonize our grid in Nova Scotia. We’re also blessed with incredible onshore and offshore wind resource in Nova Scotia, but it needs access to a market. It’s far more than we could ever use domestically, in Nova Scotia.
And I think, you know, that looking east-west, in terms of thinking regionally around resource development, and making those required connections through utility corridors, or whatever you want to call them, I think is an incredibly strategic opportunity now. I think Atlantic Canada is at a strategic sort of inflection point…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Peter Gregg
…to be able to provide a lot of those green electrons to other parts of the region. And I hope that, you know, what we’re seeing south of the border is an impetus for us to actually think more regionally across Canada, and think more nationally.
Sean Speer
Yeah. Tracy and Michelle, do you want to weigh in?
Michelle Chislett
One thing I would add to that—because I think it would echo all the sort of interprovincial connections, especially from a transmission perspective—is as we think about building out infrastructure for our business, it’s, it’s things like that; it’s also regulations, it’s labour. So, being able to move labour from one part of the country to another is actually very difficult. I mean, I’m an engineer, but like a, you know, engineers who practice and are licenced, you know, moving from one province to the next is there’s different nuances. And I think that is a theme for us as Canadians, as we reflect on this next, you know, stage of infrastructure build, is how can we get out of our own way…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Michelle Chislett
…in terms of updating regulations and standards, and actually making them more cohesive. And I think that will help us decrease cost, speed up build. And so, those are some of the things that, that we think about.
Ehren Cory
Sean, if I can say one thing. It’s…
Sean Speer
Please.
Ehren Cory
…really interesting. I started in this job about four years ago, and we had some transmission projects in our, in our project pipeline then. One was called Kivalliq, which is a power line Manitoba north to Nunavut, and the other was a very big project called the Atlantic Loop, which Peter and I have spent lots of time talking about, which is really a, a fully, completing the connection from Newfoundland, Québec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and PEI, creating a much stronger regional inter-tie. And in both of those—and when I joined the job, I heard those are just the first two; you also need wires BC to Alberta, and Manitoba to Saskatchewan. And the theme of all of them was kind of there’s a “clean” quote-unquote province next to a dirtier province, and we’ll take the clean electrons and replace the dirty. Right, Peter? It was, and I remember it—that’s 2020; today, if you think about just the loop concept, just to use one example, I remember a meeting Peter and I were in, where Hydro Québec said, actually, we think we will import more on this line than export. Like, it’s not just about taking Québec power, and selling it to Nova Scotia. We actually, your wind is…
Peter Gregg
We’re giving it back.
Ehren Cory
…you’re going to be selling your wind north. My point is just, infrastructure, given its incredible, you know, 50—wires are going to be there 75 years; it’s sometimes hard to predict exactly what they’re going to be used for. Because…
Sean Speer
Yeah.
Ehren Cory
…same thing on Kivalliq. Actually, today, what you realize is, there’s incredible wind resource in the North, and you could be exporting power to southern Canada. And again, when that line was conceived, it was almost unidirectional; we were just going to flow electrons north. And so, building these grids, I think, are going to make a huge difference because trade patterns, I think, are quite unpredictable.
Sean Speer
Yeah. Well said. Tracy, I want to put a question to you. OPG, of course, has ambitious capital plans moving forward, Canada’s per capita energy consumption is amongst the highest in the world, and there’s reason to think, given changes in our economy, demand is going to continue to rise. Talk about the importance of a blended financing model to deliver on OPG’s capital vision, and future demand from Canada’s energy infrastructure.
Tracy Primeau
Well, I think that obviously, working with, you know, organizations like CIB, Canada Growth Fund, Ontario Building Fund, all of these are opportunities for us, as Peter was saying, to work together nationally, on the…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Tracy Primeau
…on the focus on increasing Canada’s energy. OPG is obviously Ontario-based, however, we do work very closely with Québec Hydro, Manitoba Hydro, and we are looking to build nuclear in other provinces—I haven’t talked Peter into Nova Scotia yet, but, but I’m working on him.
Peter Gregg
We can chat.
Tracy Primeau
Yeah. And, and I’ll just add a point about Indigenous financing, if I can, Sean.
Sean Speer
Please.
Tracy Primeau
So, both Alberta and Ontario have had a Guaranteed Loan Program for quite a few years, and finally, the federal government also is launching one very shortly. And what that does is it gives First Nations communities the opportunity to also go interprovincial, to go national. So, so they can go to the Federal Guaranteed Loan Program and get that funding along with, you know, funding from these other organizations I’m talking about, like Ehren’s, and they could build a transmission line across Manitoba and Ontario, or hydroelectric opportunities across BC and Alberta. Whereas before, it was very provincially-controlled…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Tracy Primeau
…and now, this opportunity is going to be a great opportunity for First Nations across the borders, as well. Whereas before, they were somewhat controlled by those loan opportunities in, in their provinces. And the reason that’s so important is because of the Indian Act, you know, First Nations communities cannot get loans based on their land…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Tracy Primeau
…it’s against the law. And, and so, having these, you know, mechanisms like CIB, guaranteed loan programs, Canadian Growth Fund, whatever they may be, are really important to get these First Nation communities involved in that first equity piece. And then, you know, making generational change happen in those communities.
QUESTION & ANSWER
Sean Speer
Hear, hear. Well said. I want to ask the group a question that’s come in from the, from the audience. The individual says that historically, natural gas prices have clung to the inflation rate, while electricity prices have tended to exceed that growth rate. How do these types of partnerships, including with the Canadian Infrastructure Bank, ensure this trend is slowed, or mitigated?
Peter Gregg
Do you want me to go first?
Sean Speer
Please. Sure.
Peter Gregg
It has been a challenge for many of us across the country where, you know, the transition away from fossil fuels, more extreme weather, requiring upgrades to our systems, is all driving costs. And it has been a challenge for a lot of us. And you see across the country, a ton of pressure. I was reading in The Globe today that, you know, Alberta, the one open market in, in Canada, has seen a 40% spike in electricity prices in the last number of years. And so, you know, where CIB comes in, I think, is that, that trilemma of, you know, you’ve got to have reliable, you’ve got to have clean, but it’s got to be affordable. CIB has been important in terms of providing us with low-cost financing opportunities, that reduces the overall cost of that.
But I think it’s all about collaboration and partnerships. And so, you know, having our First Nations partners in also, you know, we’ve worked really hard to get federal grants where we can too, but also leave room for—you know, I’m an investor-owned utility, and so, we’ve got a shareholder that wants to invest, too. So, it’s finding opportunities to find pieces that get the infrastructure built, that get it built at the cheapest cost possible.
Sean Speer
Michelle, do you want to…?
Michelle Chislett
I’d add to that, like, I actually think there’s been underinvestment in a lot of our grids, right?
Ehren Cory
Yeah.
Michelle Chislett
So, I think what we’re talking about is growth. But even just to keep the infrastructure that we have right now needs a tremendous amount of investment, which I actually just think makes this theme even harder for all of us.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Michelle Chislett
And so, I do think this is, you know, where government plays a role for, you know, enabling infrastructure. I think the CIB plays a role in sort of lowering the cost of an infrastructure build, and upkeep that is just so important. So, we see this front lines because we spend a lot of time in communities, and listening to people who, you know, are feeling the brunt of rising costs. And so, how do we keep it clean, keep it affordable? You know, there’s no one magic answer to that. But certainly, on the forefront of our minds, and I think what is being put to our generation and our industry.
Ehren Cory
For a lot of infrastructure, Sean, it is really chunky. Like, you build a hydro dam or a nuclear plant once…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
…and it’s a massive upfront capital cost. And then you, that thing runs, and runs at very low operating costs for many years. But if you think of how math works, that huge upfront cost puts a big burden—especially if you’re Peter or Michelle, you have a return expectation.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
It really makes the economics challenging. Gas is a little different. A lot higher proportion of the cost is actually the operating costs, it’s the fuel source.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
But you don’t have to put billions of dollars out-of-pocket today, you can build it—so, I think the chunky nature of the industry, and the fact that we’ve under-invested in our electricity, both generation and transmission, for a lot of time. We’ve had a massive wave of building it, but it’s like a long time ago, and we’re now in a period of needing to really reinvest. That is the challenge that this industry, in particular, faces. And that’s why the CIB, I think, can help play a role.
Sean Speer
Ehren, if I can put a question to you. It’s come up a lot from, from those in attendance, and it’s a subject of housing…
Ehren Cory
M’hm (affirmative).
Sean Speer
…and the extent to which the CIB’s financing tools may be deployed for the purposes of helping Canada meet its, its goals around housing construction. Do you want to reflect on that at all?
Ehren Cory
Sure. I mean, the way we think about it is there are many things that are contribute to the housing crisis we find ourselves in.
Ss
Yes.
Ehren Cory
One of them is that for many, to expand our supply of housing, infrastructure is often the barrier. So, we’re not in the housing business—that’s CMHC, that’s our federal cousins.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Ehren Cory
But for many projects, the sticking point is all of the site servicing and infrastructure investment needed, before you even build a home.
Sean Speer
Well said.
Ehren Cory
That can be 20% of the cost of some projects. So, the way we think about it is if we can help do that—and there’s a real challenge also of “build it and they will come.” What I mean, is if you do a new watermain, or a district energy system—and we have an investment with N-Wave—you’re making, again, a big investment for a long timeframe, while density comes. So, if we can help front some of that burden, we think we can get more houses started. We’re just one piece of the puzzle, but we think it’s, it’s one of the unlocks.
Sean Speer
We’re a bit time constrained, but I want to put a final question to Peter, Michelle, and Tracy. Why don’t you just reflect on where you and your organizations find yourselves today, and what your hopes are, when it comes to infrastructure, investment, and progress, in 2025?
Michelle Chislett
I’ll…
Tracy Primeau
Go.
Michelle Chislett
…lead us off. So, we have many discussions about this, around our table. And a colleague and I were just chatting about this last week, and you know, the motto of, you know, “Build baby, build”…
Sean Speer
Yes…
Michelle Chislett
…right? Is, is I think the theme.
Sean Speer
…it’s funny you say that, Michelle. That’s been at the back of my mind, throughout the conversation, that that ought to be the theme of, of the discussion.
Michelle Chislett
Yeah. I think we’re in times that see a tremendous amount of volatility. We also see a tremendous amount of, of demand needed in all of our communities, for various reasons. And so—the volatility, as well, you know, the political volatility—I think it’s just making us look at ourselves and, you know, what can we do as Canadians, and what can we build as Canadians. We have tremendous track record on this front. So I hope, as we look at the next decade, that “Build, Baby, Build” is, we have a lot to point to at the end of the decade.
Sean Speer
Tracy?
Tracy Primeau
One of the biggest questions I get when I tell people I’m on the board of OPG is: how do you manage everything you have going on? And obviously, that’s a question we ask the ELT quite often. But, you know, the reality is, we must. We, we must build more nuclear, increase our hydroelectric power, we must make sure that we are ready for the electrification of the province, and, and the country. And we must fight climate change. We must make sure it’s clean, and we must make sure that Indigenous people are at the table. So, I’m very much positive about the future. And, and I feel like, to, to Michelle’s point, we must continue to build, and continue to refurb or renew clean energy, in order to, you know, to fight this crisis. And also, I’m really happy that we’re, we’re more and more doing it together as a country.
Sean Speer
Yes. Well said. Pete?
Peter Gregg
I talked a bit about that trilemma, the energy trilemma, and I think, lately, more about a quadrilemma. Which I think, you know, it’s got to be affordable, it’s got to be reliable, we need to decarbonize over a certain period of time. But there’s a real positive element of unlocking economic growth…
Sean Speer
Yes.
Peter Gregg
…through this infrastructure.
Sean Speer
Yes.
Peter Gregg
And I think that needs to be more of the conversation. So, I’m hoping that that will start. And then I think, you know, as we think to the future in ‘25, you know, it’s a regional focus. It’s got to be there. I think affordability has got to be front and centre. So, trying to find ways that’s not going to—you know, it’s a difficult economy for our customers to pay more. And then I guess the third thing is pace. We need pace. We can’t wait too long.
Sean Speer
Yeah, just tremendous insights. And just as we wrap up, let me say, not only do I think your point about the economic and environmental benefits, and of course, the extent to which these projects can advance our goals towards Reconciliation, I’m struck by the optimism reflected by the panel members, and the extent to which Build, Baby, Build can also have positive psychological effects for the country as a whole. Malaise is hung over the country for some time, and I think hearing your stories here about the tremendous progress you’re making is, ultimately, how we can unlock the kind of [Indiscernible] spirits and optimism that we need to address a lot of these big challenges. So, on behalf of everyone here, let me thank the group for joining us, thank the Empire Club, of course, for hosting us, and I’ll welcome, now, the Empire Club chair, to send us off.
Jenna Donelson
Thank you, Sean. Thank you, our panellists. I’m going to invite you to take your seats. Really appreciate that discussion. Let’s give them one more round of applause, please. Really important perspectives, and as you noted, Sean, what a positive note to end on. I’d now like to invite one of our Lead Sponsors, Peter Hepburn, Managing Director, Head of Global Power and Infrastructure Financing, Fixed Income at National Bank Financial Markets to the stage, to deliver a few words of appreciation. Join me in welcoming him.
Note of Appreciation by Peter Hepburn, Head of Power of Infrastructure Financing, Fixed Income, National Bank Financial
So, ladies and gentlemen, esteemed guests, panellists, my name is Peter Hepburn. I’m Head of Power of Infrastructure Financing, Fixed Income, at National Bank Financial. It’s my pleasure to thank Ehren Cory today, for his thoughtful remarks. And I follow the progress of Canada Infrastructure Bank, personally and professionally, from its inception. Under Ehren’s leadership, CIB has vastly accelerated its business effectiveness, and has adapted with agility to changing infrastructure imperatives. The results under Ehren’s watch have been impressive, and well-expressed CIB’s critical mandate. I’m pleased to say that my bank’s transactional experience is positive, recent, and constructive, providing tangible examples of crowding in capital, to fund essential infrastructure development.
As we face new and somewhat surprising economic and geopolitical headwinds, it’s imperative that we work collaboratively, to close the infrastructure gaps, create capacity and to generate economic prosperity for Canadians—we heard it today, Build, Baby, Build.
To our esteemed panellists, thank you for your invaluable insights, expertise, and thoughtful perspectives. Your input has enriched our understanding of how we are doing, and the work yet to do, especially East-West, that sort of thing, in addressing our infrastructure needs. Thank you to Sean Speer, for his skilful interviewing and moderation guidance today. And thank you for the Empire Club of Canada, for hosting this important dialogue on critical power and infrastructure issues. Finally, I want to express my gratitude to all of you, for your presence, and the engagement today. This event will be meaningful, for the conversations and continued engagement engendered by the discussion we’ve had today. Thank you, have a great day, and Build, Baby, Build.
Concluding Remarks by Jenna Donelson
Thank you, Peter, for those remarks. Meaningful conversations are what we are all about here. Thank you again to our panellists, our sponsors, of course, to all of you, for joining us today. I’d also like to recognize one more group of special people in the room. We have our students and young leaders here. We’ve got students from Queen’s, from Humber Polytechnic, from TMU. Welcome. We’re glad you’re here. Thank you for being a part of this.
To stay connected, please subscribe to our newsletter, scanning the QR code that you will find on your tables. I hope you’ll join us for some of our upcoming events. This Thursday, Dr. Joss Reimer, President of the Canadian Medical Association, will be highlighting some of the challenges and ways to close the primary care gap here in Canada. That will be followed by a conversation with Kelly Grant, Health Reporter at the Globe and Mail, discussing key healthcare issues with Dr. Reimer, Dr. Dominik Nowak, and Dr. Ojistoh Horn. So, that’s going to be a really important and timely conversation, as well.
And if you were intrigued by some of what Tracy was saying, on April 10th, join us for an insightful conversation with Nicolle Butcher, President and CEO of OPG. This will be her first major address, as President and CEO, and she’ll be outlining how OPG plans to help grow Ontario’s economy and energy sector supply chains, through first-of-a-kind technologies, new generation developments, and one of the nation’s largest refurbishment programs. Tickets for both events are on sale now.
As a club of record, all Empire Club events are available to watch and listen to on our website—and of course, today’s will be on the hub podcast, as well. So, a recording of this event will be available shortly. Thank you all for joining us today. I wish you a wonderful afternoon ahead. This meeting is now adjourned.
